Hi Al Davis.

Am 2008-06-18 18:22:48, schrieb al davis:
> Sorry if I sound overbearing here .. I am working on a project
> (very close to geda) which is now "half working" and realize
> how little things like this impact progress on a project.

For PCB-Layout? If posible let me know about it.

Note 1: When I had more money as now, I had already sponsored
some Projects with a little bit bigger sum since the
"commercial" software was incompatibel with my needs...

Note 2: I am owning professionel software for a value of over
100.000¤ and I need it sinnce for example VariCad, you
can design a Truck or a Haus and then you can put it
in "ind simulator"... There is no FOSS which can beat
this. Also I am constructing a WHOLE EcoCity with
VariCad and now I need a PCB layout program but for
less then 1000¤ since I have finacial problems...
(Get money for the project)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
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Am 2008-06-20 10:56:21, schrieb owens@peak.org:
> Michelle
> Yes I assume your reference to PCBs was Printed Circuit Boards (yes?). If
> so I have another approach, a "hybrid" solution used by many small to
> medium size companies, especially those that don't do PCB layout on a
> regular basis and/or do not do the actual PCB fabrication. Contact a PCB
> company that does board layout and fabrication to do just the layout part
> (this is the most labor-intensive part of the process). Tell them you
> wish to do the schematic capture part and they will likely furnish you (or
> allow access to) their PCB software. In this manner you can do the
> capture (and design rules check and perhaps simulation, each of which is
> usually "built-in" to the capture package) and they can do the layout and
> fabrication.
> Larry

This is no option for me...
Costs much money and is NOT flexible enough.

Also I have already bought the "Auyoue 720" InfraRed Wellding System
which is a reworkstation but now I am looking for used "Auyoue 9000".

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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Michelle,

I may be talking rubbish, but I remembered there was a PCB layout design
tool called Eagle; it was German but I think it had also English
interface. It worked both in MS Windows and in Linux environment. Not
sure if this is what you need. I googled their webpage out:
http://www.cadsoft.de/
Does it help a bit?

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Kind regards,
Michal R. Hoffmann


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On Saturday 21 June 2008 02:50:32 am Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/6/21 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <jordigh@gmail.com>:
> > On 20/06/2008, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Motivate the people that you know to let the software houses know that
> >> we want their software.
> >
> > And we want it with freedom.
>
> Write to them and tell them that if that is what is important to you.
> I personally would be satisfied paying thousands of dollars for
> Solidworks and not having access to the source code so long as it runs
> on my OS. But if you demand more, than by all means let them know.

If you're willing to pay thousands of dollars, why don't you find a n existing
FOSS program that's as close as possible to what you need, and pay someone -
rent-a-coder, if all else fails - to make the program do what you want?

JW

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2008/6/22 JW <jw@mailsw.com>:
> If you're willing to pay thousands of dollars, why don't you find a n existing
> FOSS program that's as close as possible to what you need, and pay someone -
> rent-a-coder, if all else fails - to make the program do what you want?
>

Because that would take tens of thousands of dollars and would net me
a product that is unmaintained. I am a user, not a developer nor a
PHB.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
×�-ב-×’-ד-×”-ו-×–-×—-ט-×™-ך-×›-ל-×�-מ-ן-×*-ס-×¢-×£-פ-×¥-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Am 2008-06-21 10:50:32, schrieb Dotan Cohen:
> 2008/6/21 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <jordigh@gmail.com>:
> > On 20/06/2008, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Motivate the people that you know to let the software houses know that
> >> we want their software.
> >
> > And we want it with freedom.
> >
>
> Write to them and tell them that if that is what is important to you.
> I personally would be satisfied paying thousands of dollars for
> Solidworks and not having access to the source code so long as it runs
> on my OS. But if you demand more, than by all means let them know.
> Here is the solidworks contact form:
> http://www.solidworks.com/pages/comp...Worldwide.html
> Note that writing to them requires registration.
>
> Michelle, what is the name of the PCB design software that you prefer
> in Windows? I will look for their address and we will both write to
> them.

Not Windows... The software I use is a 20 years old DOS program which
support Double sided and Double Layer. I had payed over 6000 Deutsche
Mark for it and was running on a Am5x86-133ADZ (486-Overdrive CPU) and
run in a Dos-Box under Fvwm. Unfortunately it does not support the new
Chip-Designs like BGA or chips with a Pin-Width of 0,4mm. :-(

Again: The sofware I need EXIST for Linux, but like VariCAD, such
software cost REAL money. They provide support, you will
never get from a FOSS project.

I am looking for a small intuitiv ${SOFTWARE} to build PCBs
for ARM and MIPS64 CPUs plus 8051 based High-Speed Micro-
Controller. I need per Chip templates (must allow to place
important resistors, capacitors = recommended Design by Chip
manufacturer) and an autorouter.

And of course, must run under GNU/Linux and does not screw
up, if the Workstation is a VIA EPIA LN10000EAG with 1 GHz
and only 1 GByte memory. (the workstation consumes only
14 Watt including a 120 GByte 2"5 SATA drive)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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Am 2008-06-21 09:22:17, schrieb Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso:
> I think this is rather nearsighted. Although for what I do,
> mathematics, it's easier to argue for openness of the software (a
> mathematical proof must be available and the method disclosed,

Sorry, but I habv my own Enterprise, working alone, outsourceing already
Jobs to India, Russia and Pakistan, have 4 childeren in a Internat which
cost over 3000 ¤/month and I must live...

I can not wait 5 or 10 years for software development.

I need the software NOW and currenly I have only 1000 ¤ in my pocket.
Maybe I can get a credit from my bank but...

> otherwise, what kind of mathematics are we doing?), I also think it
> should be important to argue for the opennes of engineering software.
> If you buy it, I think you should also be demanding the source code.

For what?
What do you want with a sourcecode of the size of OpenOffice or bigger?
Do you have already decompressed the full sources of OpenOffice.org?

The question is WHY do you want the source code?

I do not know much peoples WHICH can do anything with it except stealing
ideas or such...

VariCAD for example... Tell me a singel BIG FOSS of this quality and
service? (including international standards like ISO, DIN or such)

This IS the reason, WHY I have bought VariCAD for 20.000 ¤ (OK not realy
because I have bought in for a special price on the CeBit) but where is
the FOSS which can create singel objects and then resamle it to a big
thing?

E.g.: I build electonic Hardware for Solar- and Wind-Energie and then
I constuct a haus where I use it, and since I am working on a
project called "Eco City" I have not only one haus but many.
Then I have my BioFuel-Refinery which was designed under VariCAD
and is included in the design of EcoCity... Streets are inductiv
and cars are driving electric and are charged inductiv...

Now tell me where I can get such FOSS...

Oh, VariCAD allow me Real-Time simmulations where I can let drive cars
through the streets and more...

HOW do you want to provide such service with FOSS? And why do you want
the sourcecode for such softwre? The Enterprise, coding and maintaining
such software invest very much money and i am talking about several 100
million Euros in development...

Do you know a FOSS, which can simulate the behaviour of a haus, tower or
a bridge in a Earth-Quake? I have the software! - ...and payed for it.

> Unfortunately, it seems that many people in engineering backgrounds,
> with whom I frequently have to interact, are used to the idea of
> paying thousands of dollars for black boxes, whether it be for
> hardware and instrumentation or software. I think this is a recent

They do not pay for nothing... They pay for Service and Performance

> This modern tendency to eschew source seems nearsighted because I have
> seen this come back to haunt engineers. More than once, I've seen
> their black boxes malfunction on them, the only people with the
> ability to fix them have left the company or are out of business, and

But such things do not happen to programs like VariCAD or professionel
PCB layouting which cost several 10.000 ¤.

> then they come to us with interesting mathematics of inverse problems
> ("I have the output of this black box, how can we figure out what's
> inside?"). I feel so frustrated with this, because if only they had
> requested for source and documentation when they bought it, something
> that apparently never even crossed their minds, then their newfound
> problems would be trivial.

And then?

They have the Sourcecode change the name and sell it in there name? I
think, OSS or CSS, depends on the "Type of Software" and the Service
behind.

> This is my strongest argument for openness with engineering software,
> from a personal perspective. Duplication of efforts, with many
> companies implementing the same or similar software in their own
> secret ways (NIH syndrome) is another silly thing that happens behind
> copyright laws and non-disclosure agreements and something that
> software freedom can reduce or eliminate.

WHY do you think it is silly? Developing such software cost money in
recherches and services... Why do you want it for free? I call such
peoples suckers...

> I do not know much about PCB software or to what extent these
> arguments apply to your own situation, but my guess is that they also
> do and that having source and the freedoms that come with it would
> also be hugely beneficial and a good long-term strategy.

But again, WHAT DO YOU WANT with a sourcecode where the developers have
invested millions of ¤?

Note: I have ask MANY peoples about WHY THEY WANT THE SOURCE CODE and
there was not a singel one, which has respond suitable...

The argument "I want to improve the software" does not count,
since no one could tell me what to improve on VariCAD.


Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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Am 2008-06-20 23:57:27, schrieb Dotan Cohen:
> I was speaking in the general sense. Even if the company in question
> cannot produce a 'today' solution, Michelle and others will benefit
> from a 'next version' solution. The narrow-view of "it won't be now so
> why bother" is exactly the reason that we are using an OS with 15
> years of solid development in the kernel, yet relatively few
> professional-grade third-party (non FSA || GNU) applications
> available.

The Software I like to use is ALready under Linux... And it works with
Debian, BUT currently I have NOT THE MONEY to spend 8000 Euro for such
program which can do a little bit more then the design for a ARM, MIPS
or 8050/51 compatible High-Speed Controller. Such CPUs/µControllers
are absolutly genial in design and the PCBs are easy to build.

My timeframe is to small and my money to less (<1000¤)

I need a solution which can help ne NOW to build the PCBs for

1) 24V DC Modular ATX PSU (DS87C...)
2) High-Performance Solarcharger (AM91SAM)
3) Modular Pb-Gel Batterie Charger/Distributor (AM91SAM)
4) Industrial Table-PC (ARM1176JZF-S with 600MHz + PNX6712 +
AR1511 + AR5413)
5) Low-Energie Workstation (MIPS64 with 800 MHz).

So, no big things, but the Job must be done...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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Am 2008-06-21 18:39:19, schrieb Michal R. Hoffmann:
> Michelle,
>
> I may be talking rubbish, but I remembered there was a PCB layout design
> tool called Eagle; it was German but I think it had also English
> interface. It worked both in MS Windows and in Linux environment. Not
> sure if this is what you need. I googled their webpage out:
> http://www.cadsoft.de/
> Does it help a bit?

Hmm I do not know currently I will contact them and if they have a free
demo or such... Of course, if it is suitable for relative simpel ARM
and MIPS64 Layouts I will let you know...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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On 21/06/2008, Michelle Konzack <linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net>
wrote:
> [a long point-by-point reponse to something I wrote]

Michelle, I'm not sure how worthwhile it will be to repeat to you
arguments that I'm sure you have heard endless times before. I could
repeat those arguments, but I doubt you would be interested. You seem
to already be convinced those arguments are daft; that's fine. For
what I do, mathematics, the importance of source is evident: this is
how we do mathematics, sharing proof, method, and internals, this is
what mathematics *is*.

Engineers don't think this way, which is troubling, because engineers
often do mathematics too, and then I have to interface with their
habits that make my own job that much more difficult. My job is to
understand things, to improve them, and to explain to others how and
why things work. This is what a mathematician does. Lack of source and
legal hurdles to sharing knowledge are all obstacles for my job.

Money is not the issue. You keep alluding about how I want everything
gratis; this was never my claim. Source could very well be distributed
with money and you know that many companies do this now, just as many
other companies always did this before when computers were first
created. I am unconvinced that it's impossible to do so now.

NIH is a Mexican standoff[1]. All these companies holding lawsuits to
each other like double-barreled guns, reimplementing the same thing
over and over again, guarding their precious "intellectual property"
because they spent money on developing, and even if they're going to
make money using it internally, god forbid that another company
should have access to the same code that wouldn't cost them anything
to share.

I don't feel compelled to continue this argument... You seem to see
everything in terms of immediate results and money, both of which I
insist are nearsighted. As a whole, as a society, we would all be
better off in the long run without these obstacles to dissemination of
knowledge.

Best,
- Jordi G. H.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_standoff


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