> Am 2008-06-21 09:22:17, schrieb Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso:
>> I think this is rather nearsighted. Although for what I do,
>> mathematics, it's easier to argue for openness of the software (a
>> mathematical proof must be available and the method disclosed,
>
> Sorry, but I habv my own Enterprise, working alone, outsourceing already
> Jobs to India, Russia and Pakistan, have 4 childeren in a Internat which
> cost over 3000 ¤/month and I must live...
>
> I can not wait 5 or 10 years for software development.
>
> I need the software NOW and currenly I have only 1000 ¤ in my pocket.
> Maybe I can get a credit from my bank but...
>
>> otherwise, what kind of mathematics are we doing?), I also think it
>> should be important to argue for the opennes of engineering software.
>> If you buy it, I think you should also be demanding the source code.
>
> For what?
> What do you want with a sourcecode of the size of OpenOffice or bigger?
> Do you have already decompressed the full sources of OpenOffice.org?
>
> The question is WHY do you want the source code?
>
> I do not know much peoples WHICH can do anything with it except stealing
> ideas or such...
>
> VariCAD for example... Tell me a singel BIG FOSS of this quality and
> service? (including international standards like ISO, DIN or such)
>
> This IS the reason, WHY I have bought VariCAD for 20.000 ¤ (OK not realy
> because I have bought in for a special price on the CeBit) but where is
> the FOSS which can create singel objects and then resamle it to a big
> thing?
>
> E.g.: I build electonic Hardware for Solar- and Wind-Energie and then
> I constuct a haus where I use it, and since I am working on a
> project called "Eco City" I have not only one haus but many.
> Then I have my BioFuel-Refinery which was designed under VariCAD
> and is included in the design of EcoCity... Streets are inductiv
> and cars are driving electric and are charged inductiv...
>
> Now tell me where I can get such FOSS...
>
> Oh, VariCAD allow me Real-Time simmulations where I can let drive cars
> through the streets and more...
>
> HOW do you want to provide such service with FOSS? And why do you want
> the sourcecode for such softwre? The Enterprise, coding and maintaining
> such software invest very much money and i am talking about several 100
> million Euros in development...
>
> Do you know a FOSS, which can simulate the behaviour of a haus, tower or
> a bridge in a Earth-Quake? I have the software! - ...and payed for it.
>
>> Unfortunately, it seems that many people in engineering backgrounds,
>> with whom I frequently have to interact, are used to the idea of
>> paying thousands of dollars for black boxes, whether it be for
>> hardware and instrumentation or software. I think this is a recent
>
> They do not pay for nothing... They pay for Service and Performance
>
>> This modern tendency to eschew source seems nearsighted because I have
>> seen this come back to haunt engineers. More than once, I've seen
>> their black boxes malfunction on them, the only people with the
>> ability to fix them have left the company or are out of business, and
>
> But such things do not happen to programs like VariCAD or professionel
> PCB layouting which cost several 10.000 ¤.
>
>> then they come to us with interesting mathematics of inverse problems
>> ("I have the output of this black box, how can we figure out what's
>> inside?"). I feel so frustrated with this, because if only they had
>> requested for source and documentation when they bought it, something
>> that apparently never even crossed their minds, then their newfound
>> problems would be trivial.
>
> And then?
>
> They have the Sourcecode change the name and sell it in there name? I
> think, OSS or CSS, depends on the "Type of Software" and the Service
> behind.
>
>> This is my strongest argument for openness with engineering software,
>> from a personal perspective. Duplication of efforts, with many
>> companies implementing the same or similar software in their own
>> secret ways (NIH syndrome) is another silly thing that happens behind
>> copyright laws and non-disclosure agreements and something that
>> software freedom can reduce or eliminate.
>
> WHY do you think it is silly? Developing such software cost money in
> recherches and services... Why do you want it for free? I call such
> peoples suckers...
>
>> I do not know much about PCB software or to what extent these
>> arguments apply to your own situation, but my guess is that they also
>> do and that having source and the freedoms that come with it would
>> also be hugely beneficial and a good long-term strategy.
>
> But again, WHAT DO YOU WANT with a sourcecode where the developers have
> invested millions of ¤?
>
> Note: I have ask MANY peoples about WHY THEY WANT THE SOURCE CODE and
> there was not a singel one, which has respond suitable...
>
> The argument "I want to improve the software" does not count,
> since no one could tell me what to improve on VariCAD.
>
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
> 24V Electronic Engineer
> Tamay Dogan Network
> Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
>
>
> --
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
> Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
> +49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
> +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

Michelle
I have run several hardware/software shops and for me the only rational
arguement for source code is "what will I as a user do if the company goes
"belly up" or stops supporting the product. The only pragmatic solution
that I was able to work out was an escrow arrangement whereby the
developer placed the most current version of source code and documentation
with a third party (e.g. a bank). The developer owned that source code
and I was not allowed to access it unless the developer either stopped
doing business, stopped supporting the software, or failed to meet stated
obligations (e.g. failed to fix a major bug in some reasonable time). I
have negotiated several of these agreements and not once have I had to
exercise the escrow agreement and gain access to the software; however,
the existance of such an agreement gave my company peace of mind.
Larry
>



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> Am 2008-06-21 09:22:17, schrieb Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso:
>> I think this is rather nearsighted. Although for what I do,
>> mathematics, it's easier to argue for openness of the software (a
>> mathematical proof must be available and the method disclosed,
>
> Sorry, but I habv my own Enterprise, working alone, outsourceing already
> Jobs to India, Russia and Pakistan, have 4 childeren in a Internat which
> cost over 3000 ¤/month and I must live...
>
> I can not wait 5 or 10 years for software development.
>
> I need the software NOW and currenly I have only 1000 ¤ in my pocket.
> Maybe I can get a credit from my bank but...
>
>> otherwise, what kind of mathematics are we doing?), I also think it
>> should be important to argue for the opennes of engineering software.
>> If you buy it, I think you should also be demanding the source code.
>
> For what?
> What do you want with a sourcecode of the size of OpenOffice or bigger?
> Do you have already decompressed the full sources of OpenOffice.org?
>
> The question is WHY do you want the source code?
>
> I do not know much peoples WHICH can do anything with it except stealing
> ideas or such...
>
> VariCAD for example... Tell me a singel BIG FOSS of this quality and
> service? (including international standards like ISO, DIN or such)
>
> This IS the reason, WHY I have bought VariCAD for 20.000 ¤ (OK not realy
> because I have bought in for a special price on the CeBit) but where is
> the FOSS which can create singel objects and then resamle it to a big
> thing?
>
> E.g.: I build electonic Hardware for Solar- and Wind-Energie and then
> I constuct a haus where I use it, and since I am working on a
> project called "Eco City" I have not only one haus but many.
> Then I have my BioFuel-Refinery which was designed under VariCAD
> and is included in the design of EcoCity... Streets are inductiv
> and cars are driving electric and are charged inductiv...
>
> Now tell me where I can get such FOSS...
>
> Oh, VariCAD allow me Real-Time simmulations where I can let drive cars
> through the streets and more...
>
> HOW do you want to provide such service with FOSS? And why do you want
> the sourcecode for such softwre? The Enterprise, coding and maintaining
> such software invest very much money and i am talking about several 100
> million Euros in development...
>
> Do you know a FOSS, which can simulate the behaviour of a haus, tower or
> a bridge in a Earth-Quake? I have the software! - ...and payed for it.
>
>> Unfortunately, it seems that many people in engineering backgrounds,
>> with whom I frequently have to interact, are used to the idea of
>> paying thousands of dollars for black boxes, whether it be for
>> hardware and instrumentation or software. I think this is a recent
>
> They do not pay for nothing... They pay for Service and Performance
>
>> This modern tendency to eschew source seems nearsighted because I have
>> seen this come back to haunt engineers. More than once, I've seen
>> their black boxes malfunction on them, the only people with the
>> ability to fix them have left the company or are out of business, and
>
> But such things do not happen to programs like VariCAD or professionel
> PCB layouting which cost several 10.000 ¤.
>
>> then they come to us with interesting mathematics of inverse problems
>> ("I have the output of this black box, how can we figure out what's
>> inside?"). I feel so frustrated with this, because if only they had
>> requested for source and documentation when they bought it, something
>> that apparently never even crossed their minds, then their newfound
>> problems would be trivial.
>
> And then?
>
> They have the Sourcecode change the name and sell it in there name? I
> think, OSS or CSS, depends on the "Type of Software" and the Service
> behind.
>
>> This is my strongest argument for openness with engineering software,
>> from a personal perspective. Duplication of efforts, with many
>> companies implementing the same or similar software in their own
>> secret ways (NIH syndrome) is another silly thing that happens behind
>> copyright laws and non-disclosure agreements and something that
>> software freedom can reduce or eliminate.
>
> WHY do you think it is silly? Developing such software cost money in
> recherches and services... Why do you want it for free? I call such
> peoples suckers...
>
>> I do not know much about PCB software or to what extent these
>> arguments apply to your own situation, but my guess is that they also
>> do and that having source and the freedoms that come with it would
>> also be hugely beneficial and a good long-term strategy.
>
> But again, WHAT DO YOU WANT with a sourcecode where the developers have
> invested millions of ¤?
>
> Note: I have ask MANY peoples about WHY THEY WANT THE SOURCE CODE and
> there was not a singel one, which has respond suitable...
>
> The argument "I want to improve the software" does not count,
> since no one could tell me what to improve on VariCAD.
>
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
> 24V Electronic Engineer
> Tamay Dogan Network
> Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
>
>
> --
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
> Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
> +49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
> +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

Michelle
Here's the link to the Eagle suite
Larry
www.electronics-lab.com/downloads/pcb/index.html
>



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On Wednesday 18 June 2008, al davis wrote:
> On Tuesday 17 June 2008, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > I am using *********** but those programs are crap
> > and you *can not ********. *Even my 18 years
> > old MS-DOS software works better.
> >
> > So, my requirements are:
> >
> > 1) *PCB-Layouts up to Extended ATX and 18x11"
> > 2) *Only ARM and MIPS CPU's (yeah, no i386, sparc powerpc)
> > 3) *double sided
> > 4) *double layer
> > 5) *autorouter
> > 6) *design template per chip including
> > * * auto placing of capacitors and such
> > x)
> > y)
> > z)
> > 997) *Export/Import all common formats
> > 998) *Must definitivly work with Debian GNU/Linux
> > 999) *Not expensive!
> >
> > I have already VariCAD runing on a Dual "Opteron 280" with
> > *16 GByte *of memory plus some 300 GByte SCA-Drives on a ICP
> > Raid-5 and I do not *need a second program of this caliber.
> >
> > Any recomandtions?
>
> Yes. Be more respectful of people who are trying to help you.
>
> You say "not expensive" indicating your willingness to pay
> something. How about paying for improvements you want?
>
> You say you are a system administrator, EE, and consultant. How
> about providing some services to a project you would like to
> see improved?
>
> You say "are crap". How about some detailed info on what is
> wrong and how it can be made better?
>
> The projects you mention are starved for resources, as are many
> free software projects. The subtleties go a long way.
>
> In most significant free software projects, the authors are
> fully aware of the problems, but lack the resources to do much
> about it.
>
> You have been here a while, and certainly must know how free
> software works. How about taking on one of the problems
> yourself, solving it, and contributing the solution? Just one
> will go a long way.


Have you looked a gEDA? Its available on Debian.

David


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On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:30:52 -0700 (PDT)
owens@peak.org wrote:

> > Hello Larry,
> >
> > Am 2008-06-18 11:35:04, schrieb owens@peak.org:
> >> Michelle
> >> My (no defunct) company went through a similar search as you.
> >> What we found was some very good and very expensive software,
> >> primarily ported to
> >> Suns, and some reasonably good and reasonably inexpensive software,
> >> unfortunately ported to XP. Perhaps others can suggest something
> >> that combines the XP-like cost with (some of the) UNIX-like
> >> features. Due to cost reasons we ended up with the XP stuff.
> >> Hope you find something that
> >> matches your needs.
> >> Larry
> >
> > My VariCAD is runnin on Debian and there is nothing which beat it.
> > Handling, Usability, Performance and Price <SIGH> 20.000 Euro.
> >
> > Do you mean a Layout-Software for PCBs?
> > What "expensive" and "less expensive" was it?
> >
> > Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> > Michelle Konzack
> > Systemadministrator
> > 24V Electronic Engineer
> > Tamay Dogan Network
> > Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
>
> Michelle
> The software I used included a schematic capture package, and a PCB
> layout package. As do most layout packages this one required some
> human input for the layout rules (line widths, hole sizes, etc.) and
> for routing in case the built-in algorithm got "stumped". The output
> of the PCB layout package was a file in standard (e.g. Gerber) format
> that one could send to someone to make the boards themselves. The
> schematic package was called Circuit Maker and the companion PCB
> board layout package was called TraxMaker. The packages at that time
> were relatively inexpensive (e.g. several hundred US dollars) and
> only ran on XP.

I am using the freely downloadable student edition of Circuit Maker, and
it works well enough for university tasks. And it runs nicely in wine,
so I assume the full version runs also. I know, I know: this is not
professional. )
The other one I like is eagle. It is distributed with Debian, in the
non-free section.

> I believe both packages and the (Austrailian)
> company that developed them were bought by someone else but some
> Googling will tell you the new names if you are interested. Again
> these were more for boards that had perhaps up to a few hundred
> components and for relatively small boards--"perfect" for a small
> company doing in-house layout but out-house board manufacture. Larry
> P.S. The Sun packages were Mentor Graphics' and VERY complex and VERY
> expensive (several tens of thousand US dollars as I recall). These
> are used, for example, by the PC motherboard companies (multilayer
> boards, plated-through holes, vias, etc.)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> > ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
> > ##################### Michelle Konzack Apt. 917
> > ICQ #328449886 +49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN
> > LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian
> > (irc.icq.com)
> >
>
>
>


--
Nyizsa.
http://nyizsa.uni.cc


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Hi Larry,

please can you trimm down the message if you are responding?

Am 2008-06-23 13:07:24, schrieb owens@peak.org:
> Michelle
> I have run several hardware/software shops and for me the only rational
> arguement for source code is "what will I as a user do if the company goes
> "belly up" or stops supporting the product. The only pragmatic solution

This is NOT the same case as mine, since I am talking about software
which require experience, time and money to develop them.

Software Enterprises coding PCB Layoutsoftware which coste 20.000 ¤ to
80.000 ¤ (!!!) of VariCAD for 20.000 ¤ are not an enterprises which go
down from today to tomorrow. They have established VERY well working
international standards and my files are worldwide compatibel.

Such enterprises are very rare and how many such programs exist
worldwide? Mot more then 100.

> that I was able to work out was an escrow arrangement whereby the
> developer placed the most current version of source code and documentation
> with a third party (e.g. a bank). The developer owned that source code
> and I was not allowed to access it unless the developer either stopped
> doing business, stopped supporting the software, or failed to meet stated
> obligations (e.g. failed to fix a major bug in some reasonable time). I
> have negotiated several of these agreements and not once have I had to
> exercise the escrow agreement and gain access to the software; however,
> the existance of such an agreement gave my company peace of mind.

Which type of software is it?
And HOW many Licences do you have?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
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##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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Am 2008-06-23 13:30:54, schrieb Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso:
> Money is not the issue. You keep alluding about how I want everything
> gratis; this was never my claim. Source could very well be distributed
> with money and you know that many companies do this now, just as many
> other companies always did this before when computers were first
> created. I am unconvinced that it's impossible to do so now.

OK, I can confirm it since I know several enterprises or manufacturers
which sell (against an additional fee) the Sourcode for a software you
have buyed previosly, BUT, this sourcecode is FOR YOU ONLY and, you have
to sign a NDA.

I have such CSS which is working but is not realy what I wanted and
ask them for a special feature I need. They denied but offered (!!!) me
the Source to modify the software for MY needs, however, under NDA.

> I don't feel compelled to continue this argument... You seem to see
> everything in terms of immediate results and money, both of which I

I have no other chice, since I am working alone and if I do not work, I
have no money for living and my kids would be very angry... IF I wait
for a Developer, to add features and better or more intuitiv GUI, I
would not earn money for the net 3-5 years, even if I spend someone
20.000 ¤ to work on it.

Such things are nearly impossibel.

With one exception: I should find at least 100 peoples needing the same
software and features and each one would pay 1000 ¤ in a fond from which
a full-time Developer would be engaged which code the missing stuff.

It copuld work, but look @ Blender... The originalauthor was in the debt
and has sold it for 100.000 US$ to the community which created the
"Blender Foundation". AFAIK there where 952 peoles giving money into
the fond to buy it and create an Open Source Porject.

But Blender is a program used be severl 100.000 peoples. Linux + Windows

PCB Layouting software is very limited in use, specialy for features I
need.

VariCAD, - WHO want to create an OSS Project to fsck its manufacturer?
You can't, - since there is no one with this experience of it. You have
to know about ISO norms and more. The simulating situations like an
earth-quake or a hurican... OSS developer here who do such things?

The algorithm and lookup-tables for it are developed by institutes
attached to universities and there ARE patented since this development
costs time, imense IT equipment and manpower...

If such software would be open source (opened by its manufacturer) who
care about the costs of development?

> insist are nearsighted. As a whole, as a society, we would all be
> better off in the long run without these obstacles to dissemination of
> knowledge.

I have a list of 14 programs I need where there is NO OSS solution and
will not be in the next 10 years since its development had cost wide
over several 100 million Euro.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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Am 2008-06-23 22:31:12, schrieb David Goodenough:
> Have you looked a gEDA? Its available on Debian.

Yes, but it is NOT intuitive as programs I have used in Enterprises.
It is nearly imposible to make bigger projects with SIMPEL CPUs like
ARM or MIPS.

I am NOT talking abouth a PCB for a SuperSparc T2, an AM2 or Intel Core-
Duo which are much more complex, but I wan tonly place a "main" CPU, an
Atheros 802.11a, a GSM chip like the Nexperia, an LVDS controller and
some smaller stuff onto it.

Such things are easy to do if you have the place of a Double Euro-Card
(160x233mm)...

When I was designing my 28-Port USB 2.0 Hub which I needed to conect my
64 Cell-Phones to my SMS-Server, gEDA was already screwing up to get it
layout right... since I have the need for a USB connector matrix of at
least 3x3cm. This is a very simpel desing where I first place the
connectors on the board like

USB in +5V / 10A
+-----------------------------+
| O 0 |
| |
| O O O O O O O | --
| | 3cm
| O O O O O O O | --
| |
| O O O O O O O |
| |
| O O O O O O O |
+-----------------------------+
| |
3cm

and then place the first 4-Port cascade near the USBin connector and the
four other 7-Port cascades at the middle of the connector line and then
connect each connector to the USB chip...

Hell, after nearly two weeks figureing out WHY gEDA want do things I
want I have made the PCB by Hand in less then 2 hours on a A3 trans-
parent paper... since the entreprise which build the PCBs for me, can
scan it directly and give me the resulting GERBER file for further use.

What I need is a PCB-Autorouter which do the routing for me!!!

I want to tell the program the pinlayout of the used Microchips, the
position of the parts and let the Computer work for me. This is HOW
intuitive software should work, specialy for such simple tasks

I have worked with Windows <grmpf> software for 300 Euro which do this.

AND NO, (auf Boden aufstampf) I WILL NOT USE M$ WARE!!! Ordre question!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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Am 2008-06-23 23:31:11, schrieb Dotan Cohen:
> I'd just like to pipe up that should AutoCAD or Solidworks go belly up
> and stop supporting the software, my own problems regarding the
> software will be trivial compared to the industry upheaval.

I do not know, HOW many Developers, Engineers and Enterprises are using
AutoCad but right, if they go out of business it will have a massimpact.

It is like a Super-GAU.

"GAU" is german and mean "Größter anzunehmender Unfall" (in a nuclear
reactor) or in english freely translated "biggest assumeing accident".

...and there would be very much enterprises kicked ot of there business.

They have a kind of responsability and they care much more about it as a
very well known OS manufacturer from Redmond.

OH, the latest version of AutoCAD does not work with Vista. <grmpf>
Maybe they should switch back to DOS (Yeah, I have made my Diplome on
version 9 which was the last one working under DOS, even on a 486 with
64 MB of memory) or port AutoCAD to Linux.


Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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2008/6/25 Michelle Konzack <linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net>:
> I have worked with Windows <grmpf> software for 300 Euro which do this.
>

Unless I missed it in this very long thread, Michelle, you have not
yet said the name of this Windows software. Let us know the name of
the company and the software.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
×�-ב-×’-ד-×”-ו-×–-×—-ט-×™-ך-×›-ל-×�-מ-ן-×*-ס-×¢-×£-פ-×¥-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

On Wednesday 25 June 2008, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Am 2008-06-23 22:31:12, schrieb David Goodenough:
> > Have you looked a gEDA? Its available on Debian.
>
> Yes, but it is NOT intuitive as programs I have used in
> Enterprises. It is nearly imposible to make bigger projects
> with SIMPEL CPUs like ARM or MIPS.

Have you looked at kicad? Supposedly, it is less powerful than
PCB (geda) but more intuitive.

My experience is that kicad is less intuitive, because it has a
MS-windoze look and feel, with the extra baggage. I'm curious
what you think about it.

Again .. some friendly communication with the developers should
help a lot. Making software intuitive is hard. It's mostly in
how it behaves when you do something wrong.

With gnucap, almost all of the bug reports ever received involve
some kind of user error. The bugs are real bugs, and the
reports are very much appreciated. That kind of bugs is very
hard to find without users who are willing to try it, report
the experience, and work with the developers to improve things.

> What I need is a PCB-Autorouter which do the routing for
> me!!!

Someone is working on it. From what I see, he is making good
progress.

> I want to tell the program the pinlayout of the used
> Microchips, the position of the parts and let the Computer
> work for me. This is HOW intuitive software should work,
> specialy for such simple tasks

Autoroute is not a simple task.

For a long time, all of the commercial PCB programs used the
same outsourced autorouter. This lasted until the maker was
acquired by Cadence, and became unfriendly to Cadence's
competitors.


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