On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
> >> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
> >> The rest vote Green...
> >
> > That's not what the science books say.
>
> Don't be dense.

You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged.

> > Greed will be our downfall.
>
> Greed is ingrained into all humans. Getting rid of it is as
> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.

No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
which is plain wrong.

--
Chris.
======
"One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned
at the stake while the votes were being counted." -- Thomas B. Reed


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On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 09:15:10PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/10/08 17:28, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:42:11PM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> >> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:43:00AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >>> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
> >>> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.
> >> and VMS, unlike unix, since the beginning was planned with solid
> >> security in mind. In the times where classification into A,B,C,D
> >> security made sense, there were VMS B-certified machines (the maximum
> >> level, except for the lack of a formal mathemetical proof of that level
> >> of security). And Digital never had to hide the code from the eyes of
> >> the world, so that everybody could know the quality of the code (any
> >> reference to proprietary software widely used today, and which is not of
> >> the same level of quality as VMS, is purely wanted).
> >
> > I'll have to look at OpenVMS. Is it still maintained?
>
> Sure. HP still makes lots of money off of it.
>
> > Will it run on
> > my old 486?
>
> Well, no. But you might find a VAXstation of similar power on Ebay.

Thanks,

I had a look at the wikipedia article for OpenVMS. It seems that the
Open is a misnomer.

Is anybody working on an OpenOpenVMS?



Doug.


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On 05/11/08 08:42, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 09:15:10PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/10/08 17:28, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:42:11PM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
>>>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:43:00AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>>> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
>>>>> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.
>>>> and VMS, unlike unix, since the beginning was planned with solid
>>>> security in mind. In the times where classification into A,B,C,D
>>>> security made sense, there were VMS B-certified machines (the maximum
>>>> level, except for the lack of a formal mathemetical proof of that level
>>>> of security). And Digital never had to hide the code from the eyes of
>>>> the world, so that everybody could know the quality of the code (any
>>>> reference to proprietary software widely used today, and which is not of
>>>> the same level of quality as VMS, is purely wanted).
>>> I'll have to look at OpenVMS. Is it still maintained?
>> Sure. HP still makes lots of money off of it.
>>
>>> Will it run on
>>> my old 486?
>> Well, no. But you might find a VAXstation of similar power on Ebay.
>
> Thanks,
>
> I had a look at the wikipedia article for OpenVMS. It seems that the
> Open is a misnomer.

It uses open, published, standard protocols and APIs. Thus, by a
very reasonable definition, it is "open".

And the source code is available, too, but I'm not sure if you have
to be a VMS licensee.

> Is anybody working on an OpenOpenVMS?

http://www.systella.fr/~bertrand/FreeVMS/indexGB.html

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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On 05/11/08 06:57, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>>> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
>>>> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
>>>> The rest vote Green...
>>> That's not what the science books say.
>> Don't be dense.
>
> You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
> yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged.

I don't think that you and I are going to agree about this.

>>> Greed will be our downfall.
>> Greed is ingrained into all humans. Getting rid of it is as
>> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
>
> No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
> which is plain wrong.

Well, ok, you're correct. "All" is too big of a word. "Most",
then. And a good number of those who think they aren't, could
easily become greedy with a little influence.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:27:32AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/11/08 06:57, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
> >>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >>>> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
> >>>> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
> >>>> The rest vote Green...
> >>> That's not what the science books say.
> >> Don't be dense.
> >
> > You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
> > yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged.
>
> I don't think that you and I are going to agree about this.
>
> >>> Greed will be our downfall.
> >> Greed is ingrained into all humans. Getting rid of it is as
> >> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
> >
> > No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
> > which is plain wrong.
>
> Well, ok, you're correct. "All" is too big of a word. "Most",
> then. And a good number of those who think they aren't, could
> easily become greedy with a little influence.

I think its a cultural thing. Perhaps you mean that greed is ingrained
in most Americans. The drive for individual happiness instead of
societal happiness is one of the key differences between Canadian
culture, as a whole, and American culture, as a whole. Perhaps you find
a difference east/west within the USA; there is in Canada. Eastern
Canada has more in common (including relatives) with Eastern US than
with Western Canada. Alberta is more akin to Texas and the Gulph States
than any other Canadian province. B.C, is more related to the West
Coast States than to the Maritimes even though they are both on the
ocean.

Is green ingrained in all of those cultures? No. In Canada, it is most
ingrained in Alberta culture and least in Newfoundland's culture.
(excluding the areas of Canada north of 60 which are a world apart. 95%
of Canadians live within 200 miles of the US boarder). Also excuding
Toronto since its a world unto itself as well with Canada's richest and
poorest citizens.

Doug.


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On 11/05/2008, Douglas A. Tutty <dtutty@porchlight.ca> wrote:
> The drive for individual happiness instead of
> societal happiness is one of the key differences between Canadian
> culture, as a whole, and American culture, as a whole.

That bunch of commie, tree-hugging, bilingual, polycultural, liberal,
flower power, hippies from Montréal were the ones who first introduced
me to Debian, so there may be something to what you say. Matter of
fact, when I left free software-friendly Mtl and went to other parts
of the world, I was surprised to see that not everyone embraced free
software as much as the Montrealers. I had my innocence taken from me
by the rest of the world. Tragically.

I do think that this whole "whatever is profitable is moral" mentality
to be strongly USian, but certainly not unique to them. It seems
common amongst other conquering, colonialist, warring nations.

Let's not talk about the common mentality of my native Mexico, where
we're like crabs in a bucket. Ever seen a bunch of crabs trying to get
out of a bucket, stepping over everyone else, the ones on top being
dragged by the ones on the bottom, and none of them getting out? Yeah,
let's not talk about that. :-)

- Jordi G. H.


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On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Douglas A. Tutty <dtutty@porchlight.ca> wrote:
>
> Thanks,
>
> I had a look at the wikipedia article for OpenVMS. It seems that the
> Open is a misnomer.
>
> Is anybody working on an OpenOpenVMS?

There is a community effort to duplicate OpenVMS on x86 hardware
called FreeVMS [1]. It's not yet suitable for use in production, or
even as an "experimental" VMS system and development is slow (the
community is very very small). However, it may be something you'd
like to look at and perhaps contribute to.

As for OpenVMS, it is still actively developed and supported by HP.
We have several OpenVMS systems where I work. I still next to the guy
that supports all of them. ;-)

[1] http://www.freevms.org/

--
Chris


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On 05/12/08 03:34, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
[snip]
>
> As for OpenVMS, it is still actively developed and supported by HP.
> We have several OpenVMS systems where I work. I still next to the guy
> that supports all of them. ;-)

We've got 7 of various sizes where I work. Used to be 9, but the
apps on it were ported to a pair of Linux boxes. The apps on the
bigger boxes will eventually be ported to either Linux or HPUX.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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On 05/11/08 19:43, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:27:32AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/11/08 06:57, Chris Bannister wrote:
>>> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
>>>>>> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
>>>>>> The rest vote Green...
>>>>> That's not what the science books say.
>>>> Don't be dense.
>>> You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
>>> yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged.
>> I don't think that you and I are going to agree about this.
>>
>>>>> Greed will be our downfall.
>>>> Greed is ingrained into all humans. Getting rid of it is as
>>>> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
>>> No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
>>> which is plain wrong.
>> Well, ok, you're correct. "All" is too big of a word. "Most",
>> then. And a good number of those who think they aren't, could
>> easily become greedy with a little influence.
>
> I think its a cultural thing. Perhaps you mean that greed is ingrained
> in most Americans. The drive for individual happiness instead of
> societal happiness is one of the key differences between Canadian
> culture, as a whole, and American culture, as a whole. Perhaps you find
> a difference east/west within the USA; there is in Canada. Eastern
> Canada has more in common (including relatives) with Eastern US than
> with Western Canada. Alberta is more akin to Texas and the Gulph States
> than any other Canadian province. B.C, is more related to the West
> Coast States than to the Maritimes even though they are both on the
> ocean.
>
> Is green ingrained in all of those cultures? No. In Canada, it is most
> ingrained in Alberta culture and least in Newfoundland's culture.
> (excluding the areas of Canada north of 60 which are a world apart. 95%
> of Canadians live within 200 miles of the US boarder). Also excuding
> Toronto since its a world unto itself as well with Canada's richest and
> poorest citizens.

You'd also think that it would not be found in family-venerating
Confucian countries, and farming-mentality societies where "the nail
that sticks out gets hammered down".

But China and Japan put lie to that.

So I'd say that the *lack* of desire to gain as much as possible for
one's self or family is culturally ingrained, but that once (the
majority of) people are exposed to the reasonable possibility of
material gain, that that urge for acquisitiveness kicks in.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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On 05/11/08 20:47, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
[snip]
>
> I do think that this whole "whatever is profitable is moral" mentality

"*Whatever*" is too strong a word, just as you called me out on the
use of the word "all".

> to be strongly USian, but certainly not unique to them. It seems
> common amongst other conquering, colonialist, warring nations.

China and Russia seem is also to have become aggressively
acquisitive, but China hasn't been expansionist in, what, 600 years?

> Let's not talk about the common mentality of my native Mexico, where
> we're like crabs in a bucket. Ever seen a bunch of crabs trying to get
> out of a bucket, stepping over everyone else, the ones on top being
> dragged by the ones on the bottom, and none of them getting out? Yeah,
> let's not talk about that. :-)

Very culturally stratified. But many of those of the lower strata
who (even if they may not realize it) have the "get up and go"
mentality have come up north to work *hard*, so that their families
back south can acquire more "stuff" (even if that stuff is only more
food and better clothes).

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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