houghi wrote:
> Joost van der Waa wrote:
>> Besides all the tips on how to solve your problem, you might consider
>> telling your IT-department that builing IE-only website is building the
>> legacy application of the future. The next version of IE (8) will
>> probably more compliant with the W3C standards, which may also imply
>> that old websites will not work anymore.
>
> Where I work we work with differnt external partners, so we do not
> always have a choice. One system needs IE6 and is only tested on that.
> Some people have IE7, so some functionality is lost. The reason it won't
> work is because it is heavily Winders directed.
>
> e.g. what it can do is, like a virus, via a website force things to
> happen on your PC. It can steer other programs on your PC. This is
> intend use and the reason is easier work. Instead of using 7 or 8
> unrelated programs, where you look up and enter information that is
> almost identical in all of them, you only need to do it in one.
>
> Then another partner tells us to use Firefox. I am looking into why and
> am in the situation now where I am trying to hack the site in such a way
> that it can be used with IE, so people only need to use one program.
>
> The things we get done from IE are not possible with Firefox in a nice
> and easy way at this moment.
>
> Wether or not this is a good thing is nice to discuss with a pint of
> beer. The fact is that our department won't get away from it in the very
> near future. At other places they are looking to go all Linux though, as
> their demands are completely different.
>
> houghi
Just to illustrate what can go wrong: Last year MS decided to roll out
IE7 (without warning). So a lot of our pc-systems were updated, endig up
with a lot of problems because some of the core web-applications were
only tested/working with IE6.
The one and only one solution to fix this is to get rid of the IE
specific part (yes, I know, it can be hard) so we won't have to face the
same problem again with IE8. They have to modify it anyhow to get it
working with IE7, so just put in the extra effort to make it W3C compliant.

And using the web browser to push software etc. is not really a good
idea: if you can push software with legitimate goals, you can also do it
with less official intent.....

Joost

houghi wrote:

> Darrell Stec wrote:
>> But that is the whole point. They already purchased Windows once with
>> the machine, just like I did with mine.
>
> That is not always the case. Also that is a Windows problem, so they
> should solve that in a Windows group.
>

I am specifically talking about situations where that is the case. Where
the machine comes with Windows preloaded on a recovery partition that is
often invoked by the BIOS. On these types of machines (and more and more
of them are being sold that way), you already paid for Windows because you
cannot get that machine for less without an operating system namely
Windows. What would any of those Windows groups know about Linux virtual
machines?

>> So yes Windows can be purchased but with a VM it gets bought twice.
>
> No. I got Windows (Vista, I think) with my latetst portable and 3.1 with
> my 386. I bought Win95 (first edition) and except these two systems,
> none of them included any Windows.
>

But did it come preinstalled on your system with a recovery system that
totally wipes out C drive and all data? Many if not most retail stores
sell their computers that way now days.


>> But doesn't Windows have to be installed on the Linux partition or are
>> you saying that with a dual boot setup, a virtual machine talks to the
>> Windows partition from the Linux partition?
>
> No. A virtual machine talks to nothing. There are some exceptions, like
> the disc player if you so desire. What it does is it makes a file. This
> file can be seen on your instalation as someting that is e.g. 8GB large.
> You can not do anything with it.
>

And how does this file address Windows? Don't you have to install Windows
AFTER you set up the virtual machine? If it runs Windows then it "talks"
to Windows or interacts with Windows. Or does it run the original Windows
(drive C) that is already set up on your dual booting drive?

> When you start the virtal manager it emulates to be a computer that
> starts up with its own bios and it own empty HD. This won't boot, just
> as it won't boot when you have an empty PC.
>
> You can then let it boot from floppy or cd/dvd (real or image) and
> install the OS of your choice.
>
> houghi

I have a strong feeling than neither you nor Vahis has used a computer like
Acer, HP or Compaq where the operating system, WinXP or Vista, is on a
separate partition sometimes hidden on some models. If Windows screws up,
there is no repair facility. There is a BIOS option to run the recovery
proceedure with will delete everything on C drive, reformat it, and
reinstall your operating system and all divers and applications that came
with your computer. You don't get to pick and choose, and you don't get to
expand any files as you could on normal Windows OS CD.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding how to use vm, but from what I read, you
install vm (Virtual Box for instance) on your Linux partition. Then you
install the operating system of your choice such as WinXP. But on my
system and most of the new systems in retail stores the computer now comes
with recovery program that wipes your drive clean. How can you get the
WinXP installed to the Linux virtual machine in this instance?

Or does it just address the original C drive on the original partition?

--
Later,
Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

class_a wrote:

> Darrell Stec wrote:
>
>>> And sure windowses can be bought.
>>>
>>
>> But that is the whole point. They already purchased Windows once with
>> the
>> machine, just like I did with mine. The purchase price was built in.
>> When there are no disks and only an all or nothing recovery partition
>> then
>> virtual machines are of no use. To use Windows they must purchase a
>> second copy on disk.
>>
>> So yes Windows can be purchased but with a VM it gets bought twice.
>
> Just install from a 'copy' of a regular Windows install disk. The
> important point, legally, is whether you have a license to use it or
> not. If one came with your original machine then you should be fine
> provided you haven't used that license to install it elsewhere due to M$
> 'one install per license' policy. The install media is fairly
> irrelevant, it's the usage license you need to worry about, which you
> already have so no need to buy a second one!

I think technically Microsoft considers that pirating in any case. My whole
point is that Vahis is excluding a whole class of computers and should be
aware of it. Most new retail computers now come with that stupid recovery
partition. I can't tell you how many customers never made up the required
backup to DVDs of that recovery partition and then had to buy a new hard
drive because of mechanical failure. And I won't even get into the Tattoo
on HP and Compaq products.

I think commercial clients are stuck with purchasing another copy of
Windows.

--
Later,
Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

On Tue, 6 May 2008, Darrell Stec wrote:-

>We are talking over each other. Apparently I do know what I am talking
>about and you don't.

Apparently, you're mixing up virtual machines and real machines.

>Take for instance my HP. When I bought it, WinXP was installed. There is a
>recover partition (newer Vista machines have 3 partitions: Vista -- C:,
>Data -- D:, and a recovery partition) but the computer comes with no
>Windows disks. With my machines and many others I've worked on recently
>you cannot fix a Windows OS using repair. The only option is to use the
>recovery proceedure on the recovery partition that formats the entire C
>drive and reinstalls the computer to its original pristine state.

I've met that sort of situation before. My laptop, and my wife's, came
supplied with that sort of "recovery" media and the first thing they
both required was the burning of a recovery DVD using the contents of
that recovery partition as a basis.

>Now if you have Linux and a virtual machine which I take it runs under
>Linux, how can you install the Windows OS as one of those running under VM?

It might be a problem, depending on whether that recovery system is
configured to only install on specific hardware.

>Remember, the recovery program reformats the hard drive and wipes out the
>Linux too.

Yes it does, but that still won't stop you from being able to utilize
it. All you need is to copy the recovery partition from the physical
hard drive onto an identical partition on the virtual hard drive. Then,
you can restart the virtual machine and use the copy on that to perform
the "recovery" of Windows on the virtual machines hard drive.

The only likely problem you'll have with this is when you discover the
"recovery" system will only work with that specific hardware, and falls
over because the virtual machine emulates something different. Network
cards are a good one for this, as are IDE controllers and emulated
graphics cards.

>And remember you already paid for Windows when you bought the machine. You
>don't get Windows disks. So if you are to run WinXP or Vista on that
>computer you need the disks so you are paying AGAIN for Windows. I don't
>know how to explain this any simpler than that. Perhaps you never worked
>with such a computer. I don't know. Or perhaps your computer does not
>wipe out the entire C: drive.

My wife's system was worse than that. The only recovery option available
was to completely wipe the entire drive, recreate the partitions and
then re-install. The end results were almost as if she'd gotten herself
a fresh machine. All her data that hadn't been backed up, which wasn't
actually a lot really, was lost and she had to reconfigure everything to
her liking again.

Luckily, since then, she's swapped over to Linux and is no longer using
Windows. She feels it's "too slow, too clumsy, and doesn't feel right"
despite having used Windows for years, and Linux for only five months.
In fact, it only took a month before she was complaining about it
auto-booting into Windows and asked me to change it to auto-boot Linux
:-)


Regards,
David Bolt

--
www.davjam.org/lifetype/ www.distributed.net: OGR@100Mnodes, RC5-72@15Mkeys
SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1
SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit
RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC |RISC OS 3.11

Joost van der Waa wrote:
> And using the web browser to push software etc. is not really a good
> idea: if you can push software with legitimate goals, you can also do it
> with less official intent.....

Yep, yet that is what we are using. Some things just can't be
implemented otherwise. Either because it isn't ours to start with or the
cost would be way to high.

e.g. for something we need to access software from a vendor. They do not
give sourcecode and we need to use that to enter the data. So what we do
is now enter the same data twice. What they do is 'take over' the
software and enter the data for you.

Now I am more doing some basic stuff, meaning hacking websites and
convince our partners to work with us and give us access to the data in
some other way, like xml so we can both push and pull information.

One I have already that we do not need to log in anymore and an other I
have automated the loginprocess to that site over our a site I made.
Basicaly what I did there was enter all the logins and passwords into
MySQL, then let php form a URL like
example.com/login.php?login=some&password=other.

Then login.php looks like:
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE></TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY onload="document.confirm.submit()">
<form name="confirm" method="post" action="https://example.cor/go">
<input type="text" name="login" value="<?php echo $login; ?>">
<input type="text" name="login" value="<?php echo $password; ?>">
<input type="submit">
</form>
</BODY>
</HTML>

That will send the correct information to te other side and sees that an
automated login is possible. And yes, it is easier this way, because
many people need access to many logins.

houghi
--
Listen do you hear them drawing near in their search for the sinners?
Feeding on the power of our fear and the evil within us.
Incarnation of Satan's creation of all that we dread.
When the demons arrive those alive would be better off dead!

Darrell Stec wrote:
> I think commercial clients are stuck with purchasing another copy of
> Windows.

Most likely. And that is not an issue to discuss here.

houghi
--
>>>> Run the following from the bashprompt if you have the kernel sources
for I in `find /usr/src/linux/ -name *.c`; \
do A=`grep -i -A 1 -B 1 fuck $I`;if [ "$A" != "" ]; \
then printf "$I \n$A \n\n"; fi ;done|less

David Bolt wrote:
> The only likely problem you'll have with this is when you discover the
> "recovery" system will only work with that specific hardware, and falls
> over because the virtual machine emulates something different. Network
> cards are a good one for this, as are IDE controllers and emulated
> graphics cards.

Unless it is an 'inteligent' disc and looks for certaing signatures on
both the hardware and CPU.

> My wife's system was worse than that. The only recovery option available
> was to completely wipe the entire drive, recreate the partitions and
> then re-install. The end results were almost as if she'd gotten herself
> a fresh machine. All her data that hadn't been backed up, which wasn't
> actually a lot really, was lost and she had to reconfigure everything to
> her liking again.

The reason for that is cheaper support. It is much easier to
troubleshoot whith a fresh installed machine then with one where the
person did who knows what.

houghi
--
>>>> Run the following from the bashprompt if you have the kernel sources
for I in `find /usr/src/linux/ -name *.c`; \
do A=`grep -i -A 1 -B 1 fuck $I`;if [ "$A" != "" ]; \
then printf "$I \n$A \n\n"; fi ;done|less

Darrell Stec wrote:
> What would any of those Windows groups know about Linux virtual
> machines?

That is irrelevant. A virtual machine is basicaly the same as any other
machine. Wether this is a virtual machine or a machine he build himself
is irrelevant.

>> No. I got Windows (Vista, I think) with my latetst portable and 3.1 with
>> my 386. I bought Win95 (first edition) and except these two systems,
>> none of them included any Windows.
>
> But did it come preinstalled on your system with a recovery system that
> totally wipes out C drive and all data? Many if not most retail stores
> sell their computers that way now days.

The first one I do not remember wether it was pre-installed or not. The
last one did. No idea how a recovery works as I never ran Windows on it
and trew away the CD that came with it.

So probably many systems are sold that way. That still is a Windows
problem, not a Linux problem.

> And how does this file address Windows?

Please start to understand what a virtual manager is first, because you
are making yourself risiculous.

> Don't you have to install Windows
> AFTER you set up the virtual machine?

Set up the virtal machine? You run the program which then becomes a PC
on your PC.

> If it runs Windows then it "talks"
> to Windows or interacts with Windows.

No, it doesn't. It _IS_ Windows. What you are saying is just as silly as
saying that your pre-installed windows machine talks to windows.

> Or does it run the original Windows
> (drive C) that is already set up on your dual booting drive?

Dual booting has NOTHING to do with virtual machines.

> I have a strong feeling than neither you nor Vahis has used a computer like
> Acer, HP or Compaq where the operating system, WinXP or Vista, is on a
> separate partition sometimes hidden on some models.

Yes I have. I even have visited some place where they are build and have
a better understanding of the 'hidden' partition used by those and other
companies, including some secret codes used and mch more.

> If Windows screws up,
> there is no repair facility. There is a BIOS option to run the recovery
> proceedure with will delete everything on C drive, reformat it, and
> reinstall your operating system and all divers and applications that came
> with your computer.

I know and that is all completely irrelevant to what we are talking
about.

> You don't get to pick and choose, and you don't get to
> expand any files as you could on normal Windows OS CD.

Well, if you do some tricks before the first boot where in Belgium you
select e.g. the language, there is a lot more you could do to something
to install more then just what the company wants you to install.

Also it is prossible to burn your own recovery CD or DVD and if you did
not do that, there are processes in place that will let the company send
you them. However there are strict rules that need to be applied because
of licencing issues with MS. e.g. if you select the wrong language in
Belgium and wait to long (or the store made the selection for you) you
can not get the original language back.

Both languages are on the 'hidden' partition, but after the choice, the
things you are not allowed to have (including sometimes games and other
Windows version) will be deleted, including the 'other' language.

This just to show that I have indept knowledge of what is going on.

> Perhaps I am misunderstanding how to use vm,

Indeed and please first try one out or learn more, because you make
yourself look silly, especially when you are trying to say that neither
I or Vahis know what we are talking about.

> but from what I read, you
> install vm (Virtual Box for instance) on your Linux partition.

Yes. I use Parallels. VMware is another very popular one.

> Then you
> install the operating system of your choice such as WinXP.

Indeed or any other

> But on my
> system and most of the new systems in retail stores the computer now comes
> with recovery program that wipes your drive clean. How can you get the
> WinXP installed to the Linux virtual machine in this instance?

The virtual machine is a machine within the machine, so probably it
might not work, or it could work. No idea, but that is a Windows issue
and probably an OEM or even a Lisence issue, not a Linux issue.

> Or does it just address the original C drive on the original partition?

No, it does not.

Forget about the instalation of Windows. That is a Windows issue and
should be handled in a Windows group.

Say I have 10.3 running and I want to install 11.0Beta2 on a virtual
machine. What I do is start up Parallels. What I see is a screen whit a
'ON' button somewhere. When I press that button, the virtual machine
boots. What I see on my desktop is a screen that shows a system booting.
This is IN the Parallels program. That system boots. It is not a real
computer, it is a _virtual_ computer. When I do nothing, it will give me
an error, becaus ethe 'disk' is sees is also a virtual disk. On my
'real' system that is an 8GB file. Not a partition, a file.

To install Linux in my virtual PC, I need to get an ISO and install my
OS inside that virtual PC.

To connect between the virtual and the real one is possible, just like
between two real machines. So that happens via network.
http://www.parallels.com/ is a place where you can download a demo for
parallels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_machine for more info

houghi
--
>>>> Run the following from the bashprompt if you have the kernel sources
for I in `find /usr/src/linux/ -name *.c`; \
do A=`grep -i -A 1 -B 1 fuck $I`;if [ "$A" != "" ]; \
then printf "$I \n$A \n\n"; fi ;done|less

houghi wrote:

> Darrell Stec wrote:
>> I think commercial clients are stuck with purchasing another copy of
>> Windows.
>
> Most likely. And that is not an issue to discuss here.
>
> houghi

It is in the sense that if someone owns one of those machines (and more and
more of them are manufactured every day) and wants to run Linux with a
virtual machine, informing them that it may not be possible with their set
up should be something to be discussed.

Their only other options would be to use Wine Crossover or pay out extra
money for another copy of Windows.

I was just trying to be thorough and cover all the bases.

--
Later,
Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

houghi wrote:

> The first one I do not remember wether it was pre-installed or not. The
> last one did. No idea how a recovery works as I never ran Windows on it
> and trew away the CD that came with it.
>

And that is the key. New computers that I am talking about do not come with
a CD. They have a BIOS option that formats the hard drive and copies an
image onto it from a recovery partition often hidden but not always.

There is nothing to throw away. A customer is told on the one page foldout
that substitutes as a manual to run a Recovery Partition DVD backup
proceedure. If they neglect that then they are screwed if either that
partition or the HD is destroyed.

And you cannot repair nor install files from that recovery partition. All
you can do is have the proceedure (called by F10 or F12 (usually) at boot
time) run the installation program. It then wipes out everything and sets
the computer up as though you just bought it and it would wipe out Linux in
the process.

Also with HP/Compaq they have a configuration in CMOS called a Tattoo that
will prevent you from installing other peripherals than what came with your
computer to begin with. So if you put in a different manufacturer/model of
HD or perhaps ethernet card or video card you are required to change the
Tattoo. It is a gimmick to help authorized dealers make more money. The
usual fee is $200 for them to change the Tattoo. Without changing the
Tattoo Windows and perhaps even Linux will not boot. More and more
manufacturers are going to the Tattoo. Of course one can bypass the
problem but most home computer users nor IT departments for businesses will
not know how.

--
Later,
Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages