SEO

Hello all,

We are embarking on a project to port from OpenServer 5.0.5/6, to Linux. I
just wanted to get some opinions on which flavor of linux would be the best
to port to. First, the background info and requirements.

We don't need the latest and greatest technology, we just need a stable
environment for our Point of Sale system. The benefits of going to linux
would be to continue finding any needed drivers and integrating any
additional hardware into our system. For example, most of our devices are
serial devices, ie. upc scanner, cash drawer, handheld scanner etc. If for
some reason they switched to usb, we would be out of luck. The same is true
for our receipt printer. We also don't want to be locked into buying the
latest version so we can get the driver we need, also if we add more stores,
we would like to avoid incurring more licensing charges. I would like to be
able to use a basic kernel without a whole lot of extra features.

I would like to know which distro would be the easiest port ...

the most stable ...

the best driver support ...

the best long term survival chances ...

the fastest with the smallest footprint ...

The services we use are PPP for our backend connection, although that is
probably going to be replaced with a satellite VPN soon. We run apache for
a local intranet server (store reports are delivered to the local machine
and the management can view them on a windows kiosk in the stores). The
rest of the stuff we do is basic serial interface, simple tcp/ip, and file
io. Our application runs in between the users and the OS so the GUI is not
important. Our interface is currently a character based GUI, but we are
replacing it with an x-windows based java front end (management wants it to
look prettier).

Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
justin

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:56:06 -0700, "Justin Robbs"
<justin_robbsNO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>We are embarking on a project to port from OpenServer 5.0.5/6, to Linux. I
>just wanted to get some opinions on which flavor of linux would be the best
>to port to. First, the background info and requirements.
>
>We don't need the latest and greatest technology, we just need a stable
>environment for our Point of Sale system. The benefits of going to linux
>would be to continue finding any needed drivers and integrating any
>additional hardware into our system. For example, most of our devices are
>serial devices, ie. upc scanner, cash drawer, handheld scanner etc. If for
>some reason they switched to usb, we would be out of luck. The same is true
>for our receipt printer. We also don't want to be locked into buying the
>latest version so we can get the driver we need, also if we add more stores,
>we would like to avoid incurring more licensing charges. I would like to be
>able to use a basic kernel without a whole lot of extra features.
>
>I would like to know which distro would be the easiest port ...
>
>the most stable ...
>
>the best driver support ...
>
>the best long term survival chances ...
>
>the fastest with the smallest footprint ...
>
>The services we use are PPP for our backend connection, although that is
>probably going to be replaced with a satellite VPN soon. We run apache for
>a local intranet server (store reports are delivered to the local machine
>and the management can view them on a windows kiosk in the stores). The
>rest of the stuff we do is basic serial interface, simple tcp/ip, and file
>io. Our application runs in between the users and the OS so the GUI is not
>important. Our interface is currently a character based GUI, but we are
>replacing it with an x-windows based java front end (management wants it to
>look prettier).
>
>Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Well my immediate thought is that you may be wise to research your
intended platform a little more throughly. Any of the Linux distros
will include all the features you require. The source is readily
available, and free, as well as any patches and drivers; so you can
recompile a custom kernel to your liking at any time. Thus, there's no
version of Linux with "best driver support", since any version can be
rebuilt or customised to your needs. A new driver appears, you simply
compile it in. And no, you don't have to worry about paying ludicrous
licencing fees, no matter what a certain dying UNIX vendor may say ;-)
I think you'll find Linux' hardware support far better, and more
stable than SCO UNIX, which has fallen so far behind it's hard to take
it seriously.

For vendor support, I'd suggest Redhat or SuSE (IBM use SuSE);
although it depends upon your in-house expertise. Oracle use RH on
their in-house systems, the German govt are going with SuSE.

--
FyRE < "War: The way Americans learn geography" >

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:28:48 +0000, FyRE <FyRE@toktik.demon.ku.oc.x>
wrote:
>For vendor support, I'd suggest Redhat or SuSE (IBM use SuSE);
>although it depends upon your in-house expertise. Oracle use RH on
>their in-house systems, the German govt are going with SuSE.

Not to mention that Novell's buying SuSE, which I would hope will only
make it better as far as support is concerned.

================================================== =====================
I'm Mike--James' Dad, hence "JamesDad". I use this nym in memory of my
son James Webb (1992-2000) who died fighting leukemia. He was a greater
man at 8 than some ever become. May his life, battle and story never be
forgotten! More info at <http://www.themiraclekids.com/mem-james.htm>.

>
> Well my immediate thought is that you may be wise to research
your
> intended platform a little more throughly. Any of the Linux
distros
> will include all the features you require. The source is
readily
> available, and free, as well as any patches and drivers; so you
can
> recompile a custom kernel to your liking at any time. Thus,
there's no
> version of Linux with "best driver support", since any version
can be
> rebuilt or customised to your needs.

By driver support, which distro are companies providing drivers
for. For example, we recently had to change to a new version of
IBM's touch screens. The drivers for the new version had drivers
for windows, mac, and redhat I believe (we ended up using a
different vendor for our touch screens). Are the drivers
"generally" portable across different flavors? Obviously, no one
can answer for sure, but I am just looking for general
experiences.

>A new driver appears, you simply
> compile it in. And no, you don't have to worry about paying
ludicrous
> licencing fees, no matter what a certain dying UNIX vendor may
say ;-)

So if I buy redhat or SuSe, what am I paying for? Is it worth
paying for a big name version or can I just get a freeware
version and live with that? What are the pros and cons of each?

> I think you'll find Linux' hardware support far better, and
more
> stable than SCO UNIX, which has fallen so far behind it's hard
to take
> it seriously.
>
> For vendor support, I'd suggest Redhat or SuSE (IBM use SuSE);
> although it depends upon your in-house expertise. Oracle use RH
on
> their in-house systems, the German govt are going with SuSE.

I have one other question. There is talk that we could sell our
POS system to other companies, are there any issues with the GPL
here? Our whole system is written in house, obviously we
couldn't sell the operating system or any GPL'd drivers, but what
about software that uses those drivers or runs on a GPL'd OS?
Sorry for my ignorance, I have just never delved into these
issues before.

Justin

In article <bp0un2$k44$1@news.tdl.com>,
Justin Robbs <justin_robbsNO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello all,

>We are embarking on a project to port from OpenServer 5.0.5/6,
>to Linux. I just wanted to get some opinions on which flavor of
>linux would be the best to port to. First, the background info
>and requirements.

>We don't need the latest and greatest technology, we just need
>a stable environment for our Point of Sale system. The benefits
>of going to linux would be to continue finding any needed
>drivers and integrating any additional hardware into our system.
>For example, most of our devices are serial devices, ie. upc
>scanner, cash drawer, handheld scanner etc. If for some reason
>they switched to usb, we would be out of luck.

A great many things are switching to USB and/or FireWire. Plan
ahead for the changes.

.....
>I would like to know which distro would be the easiest port ...
>
>the most stable ...
>
>the best driver support ...
>
>the best long term survival chances ...
>
>the fastest with the smallest footprint ...

Every one of those is subject to change on a weekly basis.

And I accidentally clipped the line about costs.

In an article today on the new RH licensing, Lawrence Livermore
Labs estimates their 4000-node cluster will cost them $800,000
PER YEAR using the currnet RH figures. And as a taxpayer a little
of that comes out of my pocket.

The idea that retail packages go away, you pay a yearly license,
and grant RedHat the right to audit your systems AFTER the license
period expires to check to see if you are running it is causing
consternation for some.

Then there is the penalty if you are using more copies than you
licensed. For a few over I recall it's the cost plus 5%. As
the quantity increases the penalites rise dramatically.

This seem to go back to the old IBM mainframe model in that
you don't own the software, you just rent it for periods of time.
That certainly is one way around the GPL.

Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

Justin Robbs wrote:

>>
>> Well my immediate thought is that you may be wise to research
> your
>> intended platform a little more throughly. Any of the Linux
> distros
>> will include all the features you require. The source is
> readily
>> available, and free, as well as any patches and drivers; so you
> can
>> recompile a custom kernel to your liking at any time. Thus,
> there's no
>> version of Linux with "best driver support", since any version
> can be
>> rebuilt or customised to your needs.
>
> By driver support, which distro are companies providing drivers
> for. For example, we recently had to change to a new version of
> IBM's touch screens. The drivers for the new version had drivers
> for windows, mac, and redhat I believe (we ended up using a
> different vendor for our touch screens). Are the drivers
> "generally" portable across different flavors? Obviously, no one
> can answer for sure, but I am just looking for general
> experiences.

Generally so - it's the kernel flavours that you'll find most worrying.
Each commercial vendor likes to tweak their kernel ever so slightly for
competitive advantage - but they include the source for those tweaks with
their kernels in the usual places.

And the most change is between major kernel point releases. This is why
Linus and co would prefer that companies bite the bullet and release the
source code for device drivers. That way they could get their device
drivers uptodate a lot quicker.

I've had some experience - not a very pleasant experience - with a
closed-source driver for a winmodem and a short, sharp hack to bring it
from 2.2 to 2.4 status. The only time Linux wouldn't boot.
>
>>A new driver appears, you simply
>> compile it in.

Best to set your kernel compile options to "module" for any device drivers
you are likely to be updating on the fly like this. Otherwise you'll have
to take your system down to do a kernel recompile.

And no, you don't have to worry about paying
> ludicrous
>> licencing fees, no matter what a certain dying UNIX vendor may
> say ;-)
>
> So if I buy redhat or SuSe, what am I paying for? Is it worth
> paying for a big name version or can I just get a freeware
> version and live with that? What are the pros and cons of each?

I can't really talk about "buying" RedHat or Su.S.E., because I've generally
bought downloaded cdroms from friends. But I assume by "buying" RedHat you
mean getting a support contract? That's a matter for discussion with the
relevant vendor.

For "freeware" versions, the most popular one is Debian. That has a very
wide informal support structure, on the same lines as this newsgroup you're
happily using right now. I can't say much about Slackware, because the
last Slackware I used was 2.8, and that was from 1995. I havent' used
Slackware since.
>
>> I think you'll find Linux' hardware support far better, and
> more
>> stable than SCO UNIX, which has fallen so far behind it's hard
> to take
>> it seriously.
>>
>> For vendor support, I'd suggest Redhat or SuSE (IBM use SuSE);
>> although it depends upon your in-house expertise. Oracle use RH
> on
>> their in-house systems, the German govt are going with SuSE.
>
> I have one other question. There is talk that we could sell our
> POS system to other companies, are there any issues with the GPL
> here? Our whole system is written in house, obviously we
> couldn't sell the operating system or any GPL'd drivers, but what
> about software that uses those drivers or runs on a GPL'd OS?
> Sorry for my ignorance, I have just never delved into these
> issues before.

For a start, the general GNU C libraries - included by default with Linux -
are covered by the Lesser General Public License (LGPL), which allows you
to link them to proprietary software. Thus you don't have to disclose any
source when you sell your proprietary software thus linked. And
application and utility software that runs on a GPLed OS, like Linux, isn't
considered to become an indivisable part of the OS, so its status hasn't
changed in any respect - it is still your code. The GPL only applies to
code that is considered to form a single work with the original code, and
if your code is an application, meaning that you separate its functioning
from the underlying OS, the GPL smiles and waves in a friendly manner and
has nothing more to say.

If on the other hand, you decided to include vast chunks of the GPLed Linux
source code in your POS, that would be a totally different scenario, and
you'd have to talk to the relevant source code developers, lawyers, etc.
And _that_'s messy!
>
> Justin

IANAL - these are just observations I've picked up along the way.

Wesley Parish
--
First the wife, tone of awe. So much a condition. Kent in the labs, fast
forward. "So how was the worthlessful businessman?" But they hadn't
stopped meat for year ago, that arose hotel facade slowly moved apper.
- Don't let emacs meta-x dissociatedpress write your speeches!

"Wesley Parish" <wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:lg2tb.7061$ws.640436@news02.tsnz.net...
> Justin Robbs wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Well my immediate thought is that you may be wise to
research
> > your
> >> intended platform a little more throughly. Any of the Linux
> > distros
> >> will include all the features you require. The source is
> > readily
> >> available, and free, as well as any patches and drivers; so
you
> > can
> >> recompile a custom kernel to your liking at any time. Thus,
> > there's no
> >> version of Linux with "best driver support", since any
version
> > can be
> >> rebuilt or customised to your needs.
> >
> > By driver support, which distro are companies providing
drivers
> > for. For example, we recently had to change to a new version
of
> > IBM's touch screens. The drivers for the new version had
drivers
> > for windows, mac, and redhat I believe (we ended up using a
> > different vendor for our touch screens). Are the drivers
> > "generally" portable across different flavors? Obviously, no
one
> > can answer for sure, but I am just looking for general
> > experiences.
>
> Generally so - it's the kernel flavours that you'll find most
worrying.
> Each commercial vendor likes to tweak their kernel ever so
slightly for
> competitive advantage - but they include the source for those
tweaks with
> their kernels in the usual places.
>
> And the most change is between major kernel point releases.
This is why
> Linus and co would prefer that companies bite the bullet and
release the
> source code for device drivers. That way they could get their
device
> drivers uptodate a lot quicker.
>

That's what I was hoping to here. I would like to avoid being
tied to a specific release or version as much as possible. We
have run into problems with that twice, once was with a PCI
driver for a 8-port digi board. We couldn't get it to work with
5.0.5 and had to buy a number of 5.0.6 licenses. We had just
bought the 5.0.5 licenses less than 6 months prior. We tried to
get them to let us upgrade for some kind of discount, but no.
Then we had trouble because the last when we bought our last set
of merge license they required 5.0.5. Fortunately, they allowed
is to buy a slightly older version.

<snip>

> Best to set your kernel compile options to "module" for any
device drivers
> you are likely to be updating on the fly like this. Otherwise
you'll have
> to take your system down to do a kernel recompile.
>
> And no, you don't have to worry about paying
> > ludicrous
> >> licencing fees, no matter what a certain dying UNIX vendor
may
> > say ;-)
> >
> > So if I buy redhat or SuSe, what am I paying for? Is it
worth
> > paying for a big name version or can I just get a freeware
> > version and live with that? What are the pros and cons of
each?
>
> I can't really talk about "buying" RedHat or Su.S.E., because
I've generally
> bought downloaded cdroms from friends. But I assume by
"buying" RedHat you
> mean getting a support contract? That's a matter for
discussion with the
> relevant vendor.
>
> For "freeware" versions, the most popular one is Debian. That
has a very
> wide informal support structure, on the same lines as this
newsgroup you're
> happily using right now. I can't say much about Slackware,
because the
> last Slackware I used was 2.8, and that was from 1995. I
havent' used
> Slackware since.

That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. I never had
much luck with SCO support, I have always had better luck with
newsgroups. I just worry about the stability of the freeware
versions. I really don't like RedHat's new licensing policy. It
is not a simple task upgrading 900 machines when your only
connection is PPP (at least for now) and the PC's don't have
cd-roms (I don't know why they bought them that way, but that was
before my time). For the most part, we don't need the latest and
greatest version. We just want to have a cheaper alternative
when we need to upgrade.

> >
> >> I think you'll find Linux' hardware support far better, and
> > more
> >> stable than SCO UNIX, which has fallen so far behind it's
hard
> > to take
> >> it seriously.
> >>
> >> For vendor support, I'd suggest Redhat or SuSE (IBM use
SuSE);
> >> although it depends upon your in-house expertise. Oracle use
RH
> > on
> >> their in-house systems, the German govt are going with SuSE.
> >
> > I have one other question. There is talk that we could sell
our
> > POS system to other companies, are there any issues with the
GPL
> > here? Our whole system is written in house, obviously we
> > couldn't sell the operating system or any GPL'd drivers, but
what
> > about software that uses those drivers or runs on a GPL'd OS?
> > Sorry for my ignorance, I have just never delved into these
> > issues before.
>
> For a start, the general GNU C libraries - included by default
with Linux -
> are covered by the Lesser General Public License (LGPL), which
allows you
> to link them to proprietary software. Thus you don't have to
disclose any
> source when you sell your proprietary software thus linked.
And
> application and utility software that runs on a GPLed OS, like
Linux, isn't
> considered to become an indivisable part of the OS, so its
status hasn't
> changed in any respect - it is still your code. The GPL only
applies to
> code that is considered to form a single work with the original
code, and
> if your code is an application, meaning that you separate its
functioning
> from the underlying OS, the GPL smiles and waves in a friendly
manner and
> has nothing more to say.
>
> If on the other hand, you decided to include vast chunks of the
GPLed Linux
> source code in your POS, that would be a totally different
scenario, and
> you'd have to talk to the relevant source code developers,
lawyers, etc.
> And _that_'s messy!
> >
> > Justin
>
> IANAL - these are just observations I've picked up along the
way.
>
> Wesley Parish

That is the impression I got when reading the FAQ's at the FSF
website, but I just have a hard time getting through all the
legal mumbo jumbo.

I also welcome any other thoughts or opinions on this topic. I
would like to get as wide a view as possible to corroborate with
my own ongoing research. Any help or suggestions are greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,
Justin

"Bill Vermillion" <bv@wjv.comREMOVE> wrote in message
news:HoBGxE.1Jq7@wjv.com...
> In article <bp0un2$k44$1@news.tdl.com>,
> Justin Robbs <justin_robbsNO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> >Hello all,
>
> >We are embarking on a project to port from OpenServer 5.0.5/6,
> >to Linux. I just wanted to get some opinions on which flavor
of
> >linux would be the best to port to. First, the background info
> >and requirements.
>
> >We don't need the latest and greatest technology, we just need
> >a stable environment for our Point of Sale system. The
benefits
> >of going to linux would be to continue finding any needed
> >drivers and integrating any additional hardware into our
system.
> >For example, most of our devices are serial devices, ie. upc
> >scanner, cash drawer, handheld scanner etc. If for some reason
> >they switched to usb, we would be out of luck.
>
> A great many things are switching to USB and/or FireWire. Plan
> ahead for the changes.
>

That is the one of our big motivations for going down this path.
We are doing some major code rewrites presently and figured since
we are already overhauling things, this would be a good time to
tackle this.

> ....
> >I would like to know which distro would be the easiest port
....
> >
> >the most stable ...
> >
> >the best driver support ...
> >
> >the best long term survival chances ...
> >
> >the fastest with the smallest footprint ...
>
> Every one of those is subject to change on a weekly basis.
>

Yeah, I figure that the answers to those questions are fairly
dynamic, I mostly am curious about what people have experienced
to be the best in these categories and the market niche the
companies are currently pursuing. I am doing my own research as
well, but it is nice to get the opinion of people who have been
down this path.

>
> In an article today on the new RH licensing, Lawrence Livermore
> Labs estimates their 4000-node cluster will cost them $800,000
> PER YEAR using the currnet RH figures. And as a taxpayer a
little
> of that comes out of my pocket.
>
> The idea that retail packages go away, you pay a yearly
license,
> and grant RedHat the right to audit your systems AFTER the
license
> period expires to check to see if you are running it is causing
> consternation for some.
>
> Then there is the penalty if you are using more copies than you
> licensed. For a few over I recall it's the cost plus 5%. As
> the quantity increases the penalites rise dramatically.
>
> This seem to go back to the old IBM mainframe model in that
> you don't own the software, you just rent it for periods of
time.
> That certainly is one way around the GPL.
>
> Bill

I am not a big fan of RedHat's current scheme. It doesn't fit
what we want to do very well. At times, I think that we would be
better off going with our own custom kernel, since our needs are
fairly simple.

Thanks,
Justin

In article <bp2sed$47g$1@news.tdl.com>,
Justin Robbs <justin_robbsNO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Bill Vermillion" <bv@wjv.comREMOVE> wrote in message
>news:HoBGxE.1Jq7@wjv.com...

[Lucretia Deletia wields her axe and hacks away most of the message ...]


>> ....
>> >I would like to know which distro would be the easiest port
>...
>> >
>> >the most stable ...
>> >
>> >the best driver support ...
>> >
>> >the best long term survival chances ...
>> >
>> >the fastest with the smallest footprint ...
>>
>> Every one of those is subject to change on a weekly basis.

>Yeah, I figure that the answers to those questions are fairly
>dynamic, I mostly am curious about what people have experienced
>to be the best in these categories and the market niche the
>companies are currently pursuing. I am doing my own research as
>well, but it is nice to get the opinion of people who have been
>down this path.

One the above. The best driver support won't mean anything
if they don't have the one driver you need.

Best long term survival is nothing but a crap-shoot in today's
world. What looks like a company that can't fail will often do
just that, while the little one that no one expected much from can
still be around 20 years later.

Fastest with smallest footprint is something you will have to
determine with your application - because an OS may be fastest
running YYYY but not XXXX, while another may be faster on XXXX

Match the OS with the aps you need - and go for best fit.
Getting a consensus on fastest, most drivers, etc., may not be
applicable for what you are doing.

Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

<more stuff deletes>

> The best driver support won't mean anything
> if they don't have the one driver you need.
>

That's true. I've been down that road.

> Best long term survival is nothing but a crap-shoot in today's
> world. What looks like a company that can't fail will often do
> just that, while the little one that no one expected much from
can
> still be around 20 years later.

I just don't want to be the guy that recommended Beta-max because
it was a better technology.

> Fastest with smallest footprint is something you will have to
> determine with your application - because an OS may be fastest
> running YYYY but not XXXX, while another may be faster on XXXX
>
> Match the OS with the aps you need - and go for best fit.
> Getting a consensus on fastest, most drivers, etc., may not be
> applicable for what you are doing.
>
> Bill

I realize that, I am just looking for any information I can get
to make this decision easier, without bringing in a
representative sample of the most popular flavors and putting it
through rigorous testing. It would be interesting to know what
flavor people prefer for what XXXX application or YYYY
application. That would help me immensely. From that I could
evaluate the relatives strengths and weaknesses of the options
out there. Too much of what you see on the net is marketing
garbage that says it will do everything you want and will ever
want to do. "It slices, it dices, it will cure the common cold
and it still fits on a 5.25 disk and runs on an abicus. It has a
20" display and will fit in your pocket." A lot of the
non-marketing stuff is zealotry. I don't mean to offend anyone
by saying that all Linux people are zealots, there are however, a
number of people out there that are. Of course, I guess that's
true for anything. I try to follow the trade mags, but real
world experiences tell you so much more.

Ideally, I could find some kind soul to tell me this will be
perfect for you and you will never have issues with drivers or
versions or stability. That is "some kind soul" with some
knowledge not just your "average" marketing guy.

Thanks for the help.

Justin