In article <c0dobb$ela$1@news.tdl.com>,
Justin Robbs <justin_robbsNO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:

>"Bill Vermillion" <bv@wjv.comREMOVE> wrote in message
>news:HsxHBI.1Evt@wjv.com...


>> I've seen those. Then the hardest multiple choice tests are the
>> ones often involving math where almost any answer you come up with
>> will be a valid choice. The only difference could be a decimal
>> point. The people who wrote those knew how to write tests and they
>> calculated answers for the most common mistakes. If you take one
>> of those tests and you aren't 100% sure of your material going in,
>> you find that you have answers for every problem, and when you find
>> you have failed you are suprised.

>Almost every standardized multiple choice math test I have ever
>taken, you eliminate at least 2 choices with very little effort.
>For example, 12 * 13

>a)166
>b)156
>c)149
>d)157

>Obviously, you look at 2 * 3 = 6. In most cases, you could
>eliminate 2 without even looking at the question. It was that
>consistent. I discovered this in like 3rd grade, however, I
>remember being taught this stuff later in a successful testing
>class, aka how to beat the test to make the school district look
>good. It was a joke.

The test I had certainly weren't standardized, and the the choice
weren't that easy. It was usually something like calculating
frequencies, or values of circuits.

The answers might be somthing like

46.69834
466.69834
4.69384
0.214
0.0214

The latter two could be the result of dividing instead of
multplying.

The figures above are made up of course. They took the 4 most
common mathematical mistakes used when solving the forumlas and had
answers that would match those.

There were about 20 math questions, 20 general question and 10
schematics, and you had 8 hours to take the test.

This was for FCC RadioTelephone license many many years ago.
The only other Federal tests I took were for a pilot's license and
those had a few pitfalls too if you weren't sure of what you were
doing.

>I'll stop before I get on my soapbox about our educational
>system.

It has suffered a state of decline over the years.

I was lucky to have at least five truly brilliant
teachers/instructors during all of my schooling from 1st grade
through college who instilled what some may call an insatiable
curiosity about how everthing works. Because of that I'd often just
wander through the stacks at the University library, in all areas,
and pick out things at random which looked interesting.

I never got to the point where i could decided on just one
thing to follow/learn - but in the end the areas wind up either
scientifically oriented or historical.

The one thing I got from the educational process that I went
through is that I learned how to learn on my own.

Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message news:<10me20pau0ev4lkaruf4ie4leff4f50lrj@4ax.com>. ..
> On 8 Feb 2004 22:10:53 -0800, sjohnston@satshot.com (Shawn Johnston)
> wrote:
>
> >Whatever happened to scoworld magazine?
> >Thanks,
> >Shawn
>
> Went otto business around early 2000. Looks like someone picked up
> the domain and is using it to sell Linux stuff. Want a box of back
> issues?

Sure, I'd love to have the back issues.

Thanks,

Shawn

On 11 Feb 2004 21:30:08 -0800, sjohnston@satshot.com (Shawn Johnston)
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message news:<10me20pau0ev4lkaruf4ie4leff4f50lrj@4ax.com>. ..
>> On 8 Feb 2004 22:10:53 -0800, sjohnston@satshot.com (Shawn Johnston)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Whatever happened to scoworld magazine?
>> >Thanks,
>> >Shawn
>>
>> Went otto business around early 2000. Looks like someone picked up
>> the domain and is using it to sell Linux stuff. Want a box of back
>> issues?

>Sure, I'd love to have the back issues.

Too late. They're already taken.

--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
(831)421-6491 pgr (831)336-2558 home
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us jeffl@cruzio.com

"Bill Vermillion" <bv@wjv.comREMOVE> wrote in message
news:Hsxvp6.1Hn4@wjv.com...
> In article <c0dobb$ela$1@news.tdl.com>,
> Justin Robbs <justin_robbsNO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Bill Vermillion" <bv@wjv.comREMOVE> wrote in message
> >news:HsxHBI.1Evt@wjv.com...
>
>
> >> I've seen those. Then the hardest multiple choice tests are
the
> >> ones often involving math where almost any answer you come
up with
> >> will be a valid choice. The only difference could be a
decimal
> >> point. The people who wrote those knew how to write tests
and they
> >> calculated answers for the most common mistakes. If you
take one
> >> of those tests and you aren't 100% sure of your material
going in,
> >> you find that you have answers for every problem, and when
you find
> >> you have failed you are suprised.
>
> >Almost every standardized multiple choice math test I have
ever
> >taken, you eliminate at least 2 choices with very little
effort.
> >For example, 12 * 13
>
> >a)166
> >b)156
> >c)149
> >d)157
>
> >Obviously, you look at 2 * 3 = 6. In most cases, you could
> >eliminate 2 without even looking at the question. It was that
> >consistent. I discovered this in like 3rd grade, however, I
> >remember being taught this stuff later in a successful testing
> >class, aka how to beat the test to make the school district
look
> >good. It was a joke.
>
> The test I had certainly weren't standardized, and the the
choice
> weren't that easy. It was usually something like calculating
> frequencies, or values of circuits.
>
> The answers might be somthing like
>
> 46.69834
> 466.69834
> 4.69384
> 0.214
> 0.0214
>
> The latter two could be the result of dividing instead of
> multplying.
>
> The figures above are made up of course. They took the 4 most
> common mathematical mistakes used when solving the forumlas and
had
> answers that would match those.
>
> There were about 20 math questions, 20 general question and 10
> schematics, and you had 8 hours to take the test.
>
> This was for FCC RadioTelephone license many many years ago.
> The only other Federal tests I took were for a pilot's license
and
> those had a few pitfalls too if you weren't sure of what you
were
> doing.
>
> >I'll stop before I get on my soapbox about our educational
> >system.
>
> It has suffered a state of decline over the years.
>
> I was lucky to have at least five truly brilliant
> teachers/instructors during all of my schooling from 1st grade
> through college who instilled what some may call an insatiable
> curiosity about how everthing works. Because of that I'd often
just
> wander through the stacks at the University library, in all
areas,
> and pick out things at random which looked interesting.
>
> I never got to the point where i could decided on just one
> thing to follow/learn - but in the end the areas wind up either
> scientifically oriented or historical.
>
> The one thing I got from the educational process that I went
> through is that I learned how to learn on my own.
>
> Bill
> --
> Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

I had a few of those teachers as well. It makes all the
difference in the world. I also try to learn a lot on my own as
well. While I am not a guru at what I do, I have had to learn C
and Unix all on my own (though lots of the information has come
from this newsgroup). It really is the best way to truly learn
something if one is motivated to do so. The problem is that very
few people are motivated to do so. We have dumbed down higher
education to the point were almost anyone can get in and get a
degree. I made it through college in 4 years with a 3.6 gpa,
while working 2 jobs, being married and starting a family. I had
very little time to study so most of the time I didn't. It seems
to me that the workload should be challenging to the point that
you have to study to have a chance. Had I been an average
student living in the dorms and doing work study, I would have
had a 4.0 no problem (actually, I probably would have partied my
way out of college but that's a different story).

BTW, my math example was just something simple I came up with on
the fly. Though, it really wasn't too much more difficult on
tests like the ACT college entrance exam. The worst questions on
there were basic trigonometry. There were very few tricks in the
tests like the ones you described. I have seen those, but they
are rare. The only class anything like that was finance. The
high grade on most of those tests was around 60%, so the
professor would curve the grades to the point that the highest
grade was 100% (100 - 60 = 40). Thus he would add 40 points to
everyones grade. Based on probability with 4 multiple choice
questions, a student should be able to randomly guess and get a
65 (25% + 40 point curve). If you could eliminate one or two
with some deductive reasoning, you could be looking at a passing
grade without even trying ... must get ... off ... soapbox ...
productivity ... declining ...



Justin

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message news:<vjam20h7f3v3lnmura4ifhk1vbjbk0isda@4ax.com>. ..
> On 11 Feb 2004 21:30:08 -0800, sjohnston@satshot.com (Shawn Johnston)
> wrote:
> >Sure, I'd love to have the back issues.
>
> Too late. They're already taken.


Thanks anyways.


Shawn

In article <c0gc9f$vpe$1@news.tdl.com>,
Justin Robbs <justin_robbsNO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:

>"Bill Vermillion" <bv@wjv.comREMOVE> wrote in message
>news:Hsxvp6.1Hn4@wjv.com...


>> The answers might be somthing like

>> 46.69834
>> 466.69834
>> 4.69384
>> 0.214
>> 0.0214

>> The latter two could be the result of dividing instead of
>> multplying.

>> The figures above are made up of course. They took the 4 most
>> common mathematical mistakes used when solving the forumlas and
>> had answers that would match those.

....

>> I was lucky to have at least five truly brilliant
>> teachers/instructors during all of my schooling from 1st grade
>> through college who instilled what some may call an insatiable
>> curiosity about how everthing works. Because of that I'd often
>> just wander through the stacks at the University library,
>> in all areas, and pick out things at random which looked
>> interesting.

.....

>> The one thing I got from the educational process that I went
>> through is that I learned how to learn on my own.

>I had a few of those teachers as well. It makes all the
>difference in the world. I also try to learn a lot on my own as
>well. While I am not a guru at what I do, I have had to learn C
>and Unix all on my own (though lots of the information has come
>from this newsgroup).

I was part of a local computer club and the president [back in
1980] though Unix was the greatest thing in the world. After he
finished his schooling he went on to be high up in the computer
department there.

But I got the Bell Labs System 7 books to find out about it, and
then got a discontinued Radio Shack 16, and taught myself That was
1983 - but I'd had a computer since 1977. That first day was
frustrating, I could NOT get the time/date format correct, and I
did NOT know that I could have just pressed enter and continued.
So after about 15 minutes of trying all combinations I gave up in
disgust and turned it off. The next day went better.

And I just kept buying books, and one person I knew from IBM was
getting his Masters in CS and it turns out a couple of the books I
had were being used in the Masters course. I avoid the cheapy
books at all costs.

>It really is the best way to truly learn something if one is
>motivated to do so. The problem is that very few people are
>motivated to do so.

The way I got into computer full time was working a very intense 2
weeks on what turned out to be the worlds first interactive online
catalog system using laser disks for the data. That was in 1983 -
and I'm partnered with one of those people now who got a patent out
of some of what he did.

My most intense learning experience was working with two of those
from above in a startup ISP. They had a Cisco 2501 that was set up
by the vendor and 4 class C's on it. Then they got a contract that
required a DS3 [T3] and with only about 1/2 hour of ever being in
Cisco I was given a 7513 - all 150 pounds of it - and had to
migrate service providers, add new DNS, move a 100 web sites, etc.
Eight days later they picked up the 7513 and moved it to the target
location, and plugged it in. The cross-town links on the T1 from
where I was located was fine, but the DS3 didn't come up.

I turns out I had missed one setting in the Frame DS3 setup - and
it was the first time I'd done that. I made that one change and all
was well. I thought that was a pretty intensive few days. But the
IOS was so like Unix that I felt at home.

>We have dumbed down higher education to the point were almost
>anyone can get in and get a degree.

That depends on the track doesn't it. Of the 500 or freshman EE
students on the first day of school I suspect less than 75 of them
finished. I changed majors 2 years in.

>I made it through college in 4 years with a 3.6 gpa, while
>working 2 jobs, being married and starting a family. I had very
>little time to study so most of the time I didn't. It seems to
>me that the workload should be challenging to the point that you
>have to study to have a chance.

The engineering track was not that simple. But I decided I didn't
want to be in the power generation side of the world - and that was
the schools speciality. That place was my only choice as it was in
the state I was in and was the only affordable choice.

>BTW, my math example was just something simple I came up with on
>the fly. Though, it really wasn't too much more difficult on
>tests like the ACT college entrance exam.

Never took one of those.

>The worst questions on there were basic trigonometry. There were
>very few tricks in the tests like the ones you described. I have
>seen those, but they are rare. The only class anything like that
>was finance. The high grade on most of those tests was around
>60%, so the professor would curve the grades to the point that
>the highest grade was 100% (100 - 60 = 40).

I remember on the physics final that the lowest passing grade
was 18, with ONE person getting 100. Now that was a steep curve.
There were many who failed that one. Six questions, answer four,
you have three hours.

>Thus he would add 40 points to everyones grade. Based on
>probability with 4 multiple choice questions, a student should be
>able to randomly guess and get a 65 (25% + 40 point curve).

On the multiple choices in chem class your score was the number
correct minus 1/4 of the wrong. If you picked every wrong answer
your score would be -25. He said DON'T GUESS. That was early
machine grading and it was done that way so somone couldn't pick
more than one answer.

>If you could eliminate one or two with some deductive reasoning,
>you could be looking at a passing grade without even trying ...
>must get ... off ... soapbox ... productivity ... declining ...

I don't think I had any that were that easy :-) My Russian history
instructor was brilliant by demanding, and since I had switched
from BS track to a BA I had one teacher who was an archeologist and
teacher, who spoke fluent Mandan. That's a North Dakota Indian
tribe with fewer than 3000 at that time. He was probably the only
white person who spoke that.

As you can see going to school at a Univerity with under 5000
students we had a great variety.

Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com