As someone who works in a University, I am amazed UNIX vendors don't
give away free copies of their operating systems to students and home
users. If HP gave away HP-UX, whereas Sun, SGI, IBM etc. did not give
their OS releases, home users would be more likely to buy cheap used
HP kit. When those home users go in to industry, they are more likely
to buy **EXPENSIVE** new HP kit. So it's to HP's advantage to give
away HP-UX to students and home users.

The same can be said for any UNIX hardware vendor - I strongly suspect
it's in their long term economic interest to encourage people to learn
their operating systems. Once you know one commercial UNIX operating
system, you are likely to want to stick to it.

Why on earth Sun don't change the licence conditions of their
so-called free licence for Solaris on SPARC, I don't know. Solaris can
be freely downloaded, yet its illegal to use it on virtually all used
Sun kit sold. Their previous licence, which allowed for its use on
machines of up to 8 CPUs seemed more sensible.

HP have a reasonably attractive package that allows non-commerical
users to gain the latest copy of the Tru64 operating system and the HP
C compiler for Tru64 for $100. Yet HP have no such policy with their
other UNIX operating system (HP-UX).

I'd like to know HP's logic of the differing policies of Tru64 and
HP-UX. It seems very odd to sell Tru64 and compiler for $99, yet give
no discounts on the HP-UX.

One can't expect Microsoft to give Windoze away for free, as Microsoft
will never gain any extra revenue from hardware sales. But SGI, HP,
IBM, Sun etc. will gain extra sales of hardware, by allowing home
users to learn their operating systems, rather than that of their
competitors.

One can't expect SCO to give away SCO UNIX, as again they will gain no
extra revenue from hardware sales, although they might have done with
software sales had Linux never existed. But I don't think any home
user or student would care less whether or not SCO was given away now.



--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Senior Research Fellow,
Department of Medical Physics,
University College London,
11-20 Capper St, London, WC1E 6JA.
Tel: 020 7679 6408 Fax: 020 7679 6269
Internal telephone: ext 46408
e-mail davek@medphys.ucl.ac.uk

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 03:44:04 +0100, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

> HP have a reasonably attractive package that allows non-commerical
> users to gain the latest copy of the Tru64 operating system and the HP
> C compiler for Tru64 for $100. Yet HP have no such policy with their
> other UNIX operating system (HP-UX).

And the compiler? As of V5.1b, the compiler has a -separate- license.

> I'd like to know HP's logic of the differing policies of Tru64 and
> HP-UX. It seems very odd to sell Tru64 and compiler for $99, yet give
> no discounts on the HP-UX.

HP-UX has a "future" if their idiotic devotion to Itanic does not kill the
server branch of the company. Tru64 has no future at all; if HPQ can get
$99 for the 3 basic licenses it is a windfall.

> One can't expect Microsoft to give Windoze away for free, as Microsoft
> will never gain any extra revenue from hardware sales. But SGI, HP,
> IBM, Sun etc. will gain extra sales of hardware, by allowing home
> users to learn their operating systems, rather than that of their
> competitors.

Microsoft's student discounts to almost all university students
essentially amounts to giving away the "OS" and many apps for free.

> One can't expect SCO to give away SCO UNIX, as again they will gain no
> extra revenue from hardware sales, although they might have done with
> software sales had Linux never existed. But I don't think any home
> user or student would care less whether or not SCO was given away now.

SCO is irrelevant and has been so for 10 years. The company will not
survive their legal action against IBM and every other user of Unix and
Linux, Solaris excepted for good financial reasons.

"Dr. David Kirkby" wrote:
>
> As someone who works in a University, I am amazed UNIX vendors don't
> give away free copies of their operating systems to students and home
> users.

Why? Do Microsoft do this? Perhaps you should widen your
job experience.

> If HP gave away HP-UX, whereas Sun, SGI, IBM etc. did not give
> their OS releases, home users would be more likely to buy cheap used
> HP kit.

How do you conclude that?

> When those home users go in to industry, they are more likely
> to buy **EXPENSIVE** new HP kit.

What makes you think they would be in a position to do so?
Exactly how many home users go from there immediately to
management positions with buying power?

> So it's to HP's advantage to give
> away HP-UX to students and home users.

I can't see how you can draw that conclusion.

> The same can be said for any UNIX hardware vendor - I strongly suspect
> it's in their long term economic interest to encourage people to learn
> their operating systems. Once you know one commercial UNIX operating
> system, you are likely to want to stick to it.

That sounds more like conjecture. What evidence do you have
to support that claim?

> Why on earth Sun don't change the licence conditions of their
> so-called free licence for Solaris on SPARC, I don't know. Solaris can
> be freely downloaded, yet its illegal to use it on virtually all used
> Sun kit sold. Their previous licence, which allowed for its use on
> machines of up to 8 CPUs seemed more sensible.

Why? How many home users/students have 8 CPU systems?

> HP have a reasonably attractive package that allows non-commerical
> users to gain the latest copy of the Tru64 operating system and the HP
> C compiler for Tru64 for $100. Yet HP have no such policy with their
> other UNIX operating system (HP-UX).

Your point being?

> I'd like to know HP's logic of the differing policies of Tru64 and
> HP-UX. It seems very odd to sell Tru64 and compiler for $99, yet give
> no discounts on the HP-UX.

Is it $99 or $100?

> One can't expect Microsoft to give Windoze away for free, as Microsoft
> will never gain any extra revenue from hardware sales.

But by your previous arguments, said home users of such
free software would go on to use it commercially.

> But SGI, HP, IBM, Sun etc. will gain extra sales of hardware, by allowing
> home users to learn their operating systems, rather than that of their
> competitors.

You're argument seems specious to me. One could just as easily
conclude that it would be better to do as MS does and stick to
software and forget about hardware.

> One can't expect SCO to give away SCO UNIX, as again they will gain no
> extra revenue from hardware sales, although they might have done with
> software sales had Linux never existed.

How do you conclude that?

> But I don't think any home
> user or student would care less whether or not SCO was given away now.

Again, how do you conclude that?

-am © 2003

"Dr. David Kirkby" <drkirkby@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<3F233C74.4F4C3BAB@ntlworld.com>...
> As someone who works in a University, I am amazed UNIX vendors don't
> give away free copies of their operating systems to students and home
> users.

They all have licensed bits that they must pay for. Giveaways would
be at a loss to them.

>If HP gave away HP-UX, whereas Sun, SGI, IBM etc. did not give
> their OS releases, home users would be more likely to buy cheap used
> HP kit. When those home users go in to industry, they are more likely
> to buy **EXPENSIVE** new HP kit. So it's to HP's advantage to give
> away HP-UX to students and home users.

Agreed here. Though it is easy enough to get an OS if you network
around a little.

(snip)

> One can't expect Microsoft to give Windoze away for free, as Microsoft
> will never gain any extra revenue from hardware sales. But SGI, HP,
> IBM, Sun etc. will gain extra sales of hardware, by allowing home
> users to learn their operating systems, rather than that of their
> competitors.

Agree here, but you forget Linux.

(snip)
> But I don't think any home
> user or student would care less whether or not SCO was given away now.

Their legal stunts lately will likely create this attitude everywhere
no matter the product quality.

Your best free UNIX is Linux. Students that learn to use Open Source
code will be able to do much of their computing for free on just about
any hardware they can find. If said students also realize the
implications of Open Standards, they will own what they create as
well.

I understand your position regarding educational licenses, but do not
expect to see things change much in the future.

Anthony Mandic wrote:

|>> Why on earth Sun don't change the licence conditions of their
|>> so-called free licence for Solaris on SPARC, I don't know. Solaris can
|>> be freely downloaded, yet its illegal to use it on virtually all used
|>> Sun kit sold. Their previous licence, which allowed for its use on
|>> machines of up to 8 CPUs seemed more sensible.

|> Why? How many home users/students have 8 CPU systems?

Dual or Quad processor Sparc-10/20 systems are not _that_ uncommon.

--

"I'm a doctor, not a mechanic." Dr Leonard McCoy <mccoy@ncc1701.starfleet.fed>
"I'm a mechanic, not a doctor." Volker Borchert <v_borchert@despammed.com>

In article <3F233C74.4F4C3BAB@ntlworld.com>,
Dr. David Kirkby <drkirkby@ntlworld.com> wrote:


>Why on earth Sun don't change the licence conditions of their
>so-called free licence for Solaris on SPARC, I don't know. Solaris can
>be freely downloaded, yet its illegal to use it on virtually all used
>Sun kit sold. Their previous licence, which allowed for its use on
>machines of up to 8 CPUs seemed more sensible.

If you buy a used Sun, this machine would have been run wich a license before.
Even if the seller used a corporate license, the machine definitely did come
with a valid license from Sun when bought from Sun.


At least this license could be sold together with the HW. If Sun states
differenty, this is illegal and thus void.

So the real problem would be that Sun does not allow home users to upgrade
the Solaris release to a recent current version for free.




--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
URL: http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Doug Dingus wrote:

> Agree here, but you forget Linux.

Yes, I agree, you can forget Linux.

> Your best free UNIX is Linux.

Oh? And I suppose you can point us all to Linux's UNIX certification?

> Students that learn to use Open Source code will be able to do much
> of their computing for free on just about any hardware they can find.

How do you figure that?

-am © 2003

"Anthony Mandic" <nu@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F2368E5.ED5037A0@hotmail.com...
> "Dr. David Kirkby" wrote:
> >
> > As someone who works in a University, I am amazed UNIX vendors don't
> > give away free copies of their operating systems to students and home
> > users.
>
> Why? Do Microsoft do this? Perhaps you should widen your
> job experience.
>
50 UK pounds for Windows 2000 student license, compare to what I paid
for HP-UX 11i for 100pounds from eBay + shipping, Irix 6.5 base with
6.5.2 and 6.5.13 update for 75pounds + shipping, both WITHOUT license,
media kits only.
My second copy of Windows 2000 was given to me for free by MS UK.

> > If HP gave away HP-UX, whereas Sun, SGI, IBM etc. did not give
> > their OS releases, home users would be more likely to buy cheap used
> > HP kit.
>
> How do you conclude that?
>
Since Dr. Kirkby told me how fast his HP C3600 is compare to his
quad 450MHz U80, I have been trying to find a HP machine too.
For 1000US, you can find an HP C3600 from eBay with faster
processor than a single 450MHz U60/80 which tend to have higher
price tag.
BUT, you can downloads Solaris ISO from Sun but not HP-UX.

> > When those home users go in to industry, they are more likely
> > to buy **EXPENSIVE** new HP kit.
>
> What makes you think they would be in a position to do so?
>
People get used to the hardwares and softwares they use, I can't get over
using Outlook Express as my default news client, even got IE5 on my
Sol8 machine, now guess what I will use as my news reader 10 years later.

> Exactly how many home users go from there immediately to
> management positions with buying power?
>
Not a lot, but guess how MS become so dominent.

> > So it's to HP's advantage to give
> > away HP-UX to students and home users.
>
> I can't see how you can draw that conclusion.
>
Quote from Uli:
"If the students become consultants, they surely will prefer something they
know by heart.
One big advance of Linux these days."

> > The same can be said for any UNIX hardware vendor - I strongly suspect
> > it's in their long term economic interest to encourage people to learn
> > their operating systems. Once you know one commercial UNIX operating
> > system, you are likely to want to stick to it.
>
> That sounds more like conjecture. What evidence do you have
> to support that claim?
>
Same quote...


> > Why on earth Sun don't change the licence conditions of their
> > so-called free licence for Solaris on SPARC, I don't know. Solaris can
> > be freely downloaded, yet its illegal to use it on virtually all used
> > Sun kit sold. Their previous licence, which allowed for its use on
> > machines of up to 8 CPUs seemed more sensible.
>
> Why? How many home users/students have 8 CPU systems?
>
Not a lot, lets suppose we all buy from a reseller,
a SS10/20 and U2 can take more than 1 CPU, even
a dual CPU U60 goes for under 1000pounds now.

> > HP have a reasonably attractive package that allows non-commerical
> > users to gain the latest copy of the Tru64 operating system and the HP
> > C compiler for Tru64 for $100. Yet HP have no such policy with their
> > other UNIX operating system (HP-UX).
>
> Your point being?
>
> > I'd like to know HP's logic of the differing policies of Tru64 and
> > HP-UX. It seems very odd to sell Tru64 and compiler for $99, yet give
> > no discounts on the HP-UX.
>
> Is it $99 or $100?
>
$1....WOW! that's a lot of money, you can buy a botte of mineral water.


> > One can't expect Microsoft to give Windoze away for free, as Microsoft
> > will never gain any extra revenue from hardware sales.
> >

> But by your previous arguments, said home users of such
> free software would go on to use it commercially.
>
Microsoft = software company = sell softwares for $$$.
Sun, HP, IBM, SGI = hardware companies who sell their own softwares =
selling hardwares for living, not softwares.

> > But SGI, HP, IBM, Sun etc. will gain extra sales of hardware, by
allowing
> > home users to learn their operating systems, rather than that of their
> > competitors.
>
> You're argument seems specious to me. One could just as easily
> conclude that it would be better to do as MS does and stick to
> software and forget about hardware.
>
Irix works on MIPS, HP-UX runs on PA and Itanium, Solaris on Sparc with
limited support on x86.
Now who makes MIPS, PA and Sparc based machine?
If SGI do as MS, you would have possibily the prettiest OS without any
hardwares
to run it on.

> > One can't expect SCO to give away SCO UNIX, as again they will gain no
> > extra revenue from hardware sales, although they might have done with
> > software sales had Linux never existed.
>
> How do you conclude that?
>
The whole software and hardware company thingy.


> > But I don't think any home
> > user or student would care less whether or not SCO was given away now.
>
> Again, how do you conclude that?
>
I am the only person in the entire department of EE.Eng with a copy of SCO
UnixWare


Those are just my opinions

Yuan

Hello all, just to let you know I have a 6 CPU with 2.5GB RAM HP9000/T500 as
my home machine!
And yes, it will currently only run HP-UX as theres not enough effort going
in to get Linux running on it. And no, I didn't pay the $500 licence fee per
CPU (oddly enough!).
From my own view point its a fantastic way to learn HP-UX which surely is in
HP's best interest? If I hadn't saved this monster it surely would have got
scrapped and whats the point of that? The fact is that the machine would
have originally had a HP-UX licence with it so I have no problem with
"illegally" running HP-UX on it now. What possibe use is HP-UX without the
HP hardware? nothing at all. Are there any HP hardware clones? I don't think
so!
It's not like I'll be phoning HP for tech support either so it costs HP
nothing.

So if you have HP hardware then HP-UX really ought to be FREE as theres just
no point otherwise.

"Anthony Mandic" <nx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F23A005.83B7C2DA@hotmail.com...
> Volker Borchert wrote:
>
> > |> Why? How many home users/students have 8 CPU systems?
> >
> > Dual or Quad processor Sparc-10/20 systems are not _that_ uncommon.
>
> Exactly! 8 CPU home systems would be rarer still.
>
> -am © 2003

Yuan wrote:

> > > As someone who works in a University, I am amazed UNIX vendors don't
> > > give away free copies of their operating systems to students and home
> > > users.
> >
> > Why? Do Microsoft do this?
> >
> 50 UK pounds for Windows 2000 student license,

Which isn't exactly free.

> My second copy of Windows 2000 was given to me for free by MS UK.

That's sounds more like it. So they do do it.

> > > If HP gave away HP-UX, whereas Sun, SGI, IBM etc. did not give
> > > their OS releases, home users would be more likely to buy cheap used
> > > HP kit.
> >
> > How do you conclude that?
> >
> Since Dr. Kirkby told me how fast his HP C3600 is compare to his
> quad 450MHz U80, I have been trying to find a HP machine too.
> For 1000US, you can find an HP C3600 from eBay with faster
> processor than a single 450MHz U60/80 which tend to have higher
> price tag.

Ah! So that explains his troll post.

> BUT, you can downloads Solaris ISO from Sun but not HP-UX.

That's good. So what?

> > > When those home users go in to industry, they are more likely
> > > to buy **EXPENSIVE** new HP kit.
> >
> > What makes you think they would be in a position to do so?
> >
> People get used to the hardwares and softwares they use,

So? That doesn't explain how they go from being a home user/student
to being in a management position with purchasing power. Unless ...
whoever hired them was a complete and utter idiot.

> I can't get over using Outlook Express as my default news client,

My condolences.

> > Exactly how many home users go from there immediately to
> > management positions with buying power?
> >
> Not a lot, but guess how MS become so dominent.

I'm not here to guess. So don't patronise me with specious
statements. Show me facts and figures.

> > > So it's to HP's advantage to give
> > > away HP-UX to students and home users.
> >
> > I can't see how you can draw that conclusion.
> >
> Quote from Uli:
> "If the students become consultants, they surely will prefer something they
> know by heart. One big advance of Linux these days."

Linux isn't HP. And quoting someone else's misinformed statement
doesn't make it any less misinformed. Show me some proof. How do
those who come to prefer HP do so when they don't use it as a
student or home user?

> > > The same can be said for any UNIX hardware vendor -
> >
> > That sounds more like conjecture. What evidence do you have
> > to support that claim?
> >
> Same quote...

Same quote what?

> > Why? How many home users/students have 8 CPU systems?
> >
> Not a lot,

Exactly.

> lets suppose we all buy from a reseller,
> a SS10/20 and U2 can take more than 1 CPU, even
> a dual CPU U60 goes for under 1000pounds now.

So? How does that constitute an 8 CPU system? At most its only 2.

> $1....WOW! that's a lot of money, you can buy a botte of mineral water.

What's a botte?

> > > One can't expect Microsoft to give Windoze away for free, as Microsoft
> > > will never gain any extra revenue from hardware sales.

Looks like you've just proven "Kirbu" wrong.

> Microsoft = software company = sell softwares for $$$.
> Sun, HP, IBM, SGI = hardware companies who sell their own softwares =
> selling hardwares for living, not softwares.

Your point being?

> Irix works on MIPS, HP-UX runs on PA and Itanium, Solaris on Sparc with
> limited support on x86.
> Now who makes MIPS, PA and Sparc based machine?
> If SGI do as MS, you would have possibily the prettiest OS without any
> hardwares to run it on.

Your point being? MS don't appear to have any problems with that.
Why do you think SGI would?

> > > One can't expect SCO to give away SCO UNIX, as again they will gain no
> > > extra revenue from hardware sales, although they might have done with
> > > software sales had Linux never existed.
> >
> > How do you conclude that?
> >
> The whole software and hardware company thingy.

You haven't presented anything by way of a concrete argument
yet. All I'm seeing is conjecture. How about you show me the
money?

> > > But I don't think any home
> > > user or student would care less whether or not SCO was given away now.
> >
> > Again, how do you conclude that?
> >
> I am the only person in the entire department of EE.Eng with a copy of SCO
> UnixWare

My, aren't you lucky. But so what?

> Those are just my opinions

They certainly are. And that's the trouble. Too much baseless
opinion and no facts.

-am © 2003