On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Keith Keller wrote:

>> IMHO thats what he was doing, the OP says he is using MTA a, why
>> should anyone say 'check out MTA b', its like posting on this list and
>> saying we should check out SuSE or fuckdora.
>
> Not really, but you're welcome to your own opinion. Some software is
> more suited to certain environments. Some people just grok some
> software better than others. I certainly wouldn't claim that postfix is
> better than sendmail (or vice versa), but I understand postfix better
> than sendmail. Other admins understand sendmail better. The person who
> said he's using MTA a might try MTA b and decide for himself which he
> prefers.

Hence my comment he should then try Exim and Qmail even, if you are saying
to someone try another MTA, then in fairness you should try all other
MTA's.

--

Cheers
Res

On 2007-10-09, Res <res@ausics.net> wrote:
> Well, I was wondering when the spammers would get around to it.
>
> For that mater, look at Exim and Qmail as well.
>
> If you are going to spam that an MTA is better, how about you prove why
> its better, somthing nobody has been able to do yet, since postfix
> basically copies everything sendmail does anyway, also postfixes
> implimentation of the sendmail (look-ahead|milter-ahead|smd-sav) milter,
> fails dismally under heavy use.

I believe this is the first time I've ever been accused of "spamming"
anywhere. Accusing me of spamming this group because I recommended a
particular MTA in one single post is patently ridiculous.

As for why it's better? I recommend it because it's sane and easy to
setup. The documentation is without par in the MTA world, and
installing it is a breeze with the SlackBuild script I personally
wrote for it.

I have only barely touched exim, but I've used qmail enough to know
that it's a nightmare to admin. Friends don't let friends use qmail.
Sure, some big ISPs use qmail, but others use sendmail and other use
Exchange. I'm sure you'll find some running postfix or exim as well.

From my experience with MTAs, postfix is almost certainly the best fit
for the OP's needs, and that is why I recommended it. Perhaps you
should take the chip off your shoulder and stop seeing threats or (as
you put it) spam whenever some one doesn't recommend your pet favorite
application?

--
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, +Alan Hicks+ wrote:

> I believe this is the first time I've ever been accused of "spamming"
> anywhere. Accusing me of spamming this group because I recommended a
> particular MTA in one single post is patently ridiculous.

The OP never asked is there an alternative MTA, and the only people trying
to ram any MTA down anyones throats are postfix users, and normally only a
small minority but always the same people, you don't see other MTA users
coming out and saying this do you? I have banned a few of them from some
lists, because it gets beyond a joke.

> As for why it's better? I recommend it because it's sane and easy to
> setup. The documentation is without par in the MTA world, and

As many find the same about Sendmail, Exim and Qmail

its a personal choice and no one has the right to try ram our own
preferences down other peoples throats, it would have been totally
different if the OP asked for opinions on alternative MTA's but he did
not.

> I have only barely touched Exim, but I've used Qmail enough to know
> that it's a nightmare to admin. Friends don't let friends use Qmail.

Thats a cop out, Qmail is not that bad once you understand it, just like
anything once you take the time to understand it.

> Sure, some big ISP's use Qmail, but others use sendmail and other use
> Exchange. I'm sure you'll find some running postfix or Exim as well.

I don't know any ISP that uses exchange . but I'm sure there is some
small backyard garage operators with 50 customers that might.

>
> From my experience with MTA's, postfix is almost certainly the best fit
> for the OP's needs, and that is why I recommended it. Perhaps you
> should take the chip off your shoulder and stop seeing threats or (as
> you put it) spam whenever some one doesn't recommend your pet favorite
> application?

errr we have some postfix servers, we have a mixture of servers, postfix
is no better or easier than Sendmail, but I took the time to understand
all the mentioned MTA's (to ensure I'm using what's most suited for us)
not just jump on the spammers bandwagons of anti-sendmail traits.

We have started replacing our front line Qmail boxes with Sendmail
(because Qmail is a lot of work to get modern front door style
protections in place that compare to MTA's like Sendmail or postfix),
who then pass off to one of a couple Qmail servers which are basically
mail gateways (along with mail DB's etc) to the NetApps, it works
fantastic, the front boxes take care of all the real work.

We tried postfix as well but it fails miserably under this loading with
its inbuilt recipient lookup where Sendmail's milter, using smf-sav (in
recipient lookup mode only) does not even raise a sweat, infact Wietse
himself I recall saying its not designed for high volume work (probably
because he would rather have you change to his VD method)


--

Cheers
Res

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Res wrote:


> mail gateways (along with mail DB's etc) to the NetApps, it works
> fantastic, the front boxes take care of all the real work.

I also forgot to mention, for redundancy and load balancing, we can have 8
Sendmail front-line boxes to 1 Qmail box, could possibly run more if we
needed to.

>> We tried postfix as well but it fails miserably under this loading with
> its inbuilt recipient lookup where Sendmail's milter, using smf-sav (in

Because of this failure, I'd probably get postfix all working happily if
I threw in 16 or 24 to 1


--

Cheers
Res

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This is the last I'll argue with you. You seem intent on finding fault
in anything for the sake fo finding fault with some one else. That is
simply foolish.

On 2007-10-10, Res <res@ausics.net> wrote:
>> I believe this is the first time I've ever been accused of "spamming"
>> anywhere. Accusing me of spamming this group because I recommended a
>> particular MTA in one single post is patently ridiculous.
>
> The OP never asked is there an alternative MTA, and the only people trying
> to ram any MTA down anyones throats are postfix users, and normally only a
> small minority but always the same people, you don't see other MTA users
> coming out and saying this do you? I have banned a few of them from some
> lists, because it gets beyond a joke.

I far from rammed anything down anyone's throat. The OP obviously
didn't know what he was doing with sendmail, so I simply recommended an
easier alternative. There is nothing wrong with that, and frankly your
comments to that border on trolling.

>> As for why it's better? I recommend it because it's sane and easy to
>> setup. The documentation is without par in the MTA world, and
>
> As many find the same about Sendmail, Exim and Qmail

Please. Qmail is horribly documented. Hundreds if not thousands of
patches are floating around the net, and the way those patches interact
with one another is hardly straightforward. Sendmail has lots of
documentation, but much of it is difficult to understand. I have no
real experience with Exim to comment on that.

> its a personal choice and no one has the right to try ram our own
> preferences down other peoples throats

Apparently some one changed the definition of recommendation to
"ramming down a throat". You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Seriously, this is the exact quote:

Seriously, take a look at postfix for a solid, easily configured mail
server. The documentation is great, and you can get SlackBuild scripts
for 11.0 and 12.0 from http://www.slackbuilds.org.

Given that the OP had no grasp of what was going on with sendmail, I
see no problem in offering an alternative that might be easier for him
to grok. Apparently, you see that as some sort of attack. How
simple-minded.

>> I have only barely touched Exim, but I've used Qmail enough to know
>> that it's a nightmare to admin. Friends don't let friends use Qmail.
>
> Thats a cop out, Qmail is not that bad once you understand it, just like
> anything once you take the time to understand it.

I've taken the time to understand it, and I can say with a straight
face and all seriousness that qmail sucks big time. Sure you can make
it do whatever you want it to do, but the amount of time required for
that, the amount of aggrivation, the long list of patches and patches,
the poor configuration utilities, and other problems you're sure to
come across, it's just not worth it.

- --
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5
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On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, +Alan Hicks+ wrote:

>> The OP never asked is there an alternative MTA, and the only people trying
>> to ram any MTA down anyones throats are postfix users, and normally only a
>> small minority but always the same people, you don't see other MTA users
>> coming out and saying this do you? I have banned a few of them from some
>> lists, because it gets beyond a joke.
>
> I far from rammed anything down anyone's throat. The OP obviously
> didn't know what he was doing with sendmail, so I simply recommended an
> easier alternative. There is nothing wrong with that, and frankly your
> comments to that border on trolling.

Ahh "I dont like you picking on me so you are a troll".. right... now I
know where you come from and again you cant say any MTA is easier than
another, because you apparently dont understand them all equally as well.

>> As many find the same about Sendmail, Exim and Qmail
>
> Please. Qmail is horribly documented. Hundreds if not thousands of

Eh? you obviously dont know how to read the web site or use google.

> patches are floating around the net, and the way those patches interact

thousands my ass, theres only a handful, and you only need basic patching,
the toaster patch (which I dont use) is most popular and contains all hte
good stuff

> with one another is hardly straightforward. Sendmail has lots of
> documentation, but much of it is difficult to understand. I have no

I agreesome of it could be dummied down for people who don't know how to
take advantage of its advanced capabilities, for the average person, they
will never need to know most of it.

(not repasting your spam) but again it might be easier forYOU, thats is in
YOUR opinion and yours only.


I notice you didn't comment on how useless postfix's internal recipient
lookup is, or maybe you dont run anything more than a standalone box with
a few local users, not responsible for a mail network contained hundreds
of thousands, where you cant do it on one machine.

Your tripe reminds me of the local sedan (postfix) V SUV (Sendmail), they
both get you around town, but once you hit the offroad the sedan is useless.

--

Cheers
Res

On 2007-10-11, Res <res@ausics.net> wrote:
>
> I notice you didn't comment on how useless postfix's internal recipient
> lookup is, or maybe you dont run anything more than a standalone box with
> a few local users, not responsible for a mail network contained hundreds
> of thousands, where you cant do it on one machine.

Perhaps not. Not everybody can be as super-important as you make
yourself out to be. It doesn't sound like the OP is running a mail
network containing hundreds of thousands of users; if he were, he'd
probably know about Qmail by now (and if he didn't, that'd be grounds
for firing him).

> Your tripe reminds me of the local sedan (postfix) V SUV (Sendmail), they
> both get you around town, but once you hit the offroad the sedan is useless.

If you never go offroad, the SUV is overkill.

Get over it already! Perhaps you're not trolling, but you sure sound
like you're whinging over nothing.

--keith

--
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Keith Keller wrote:

> yourself out to be. It doesn't sound like the OP is running a mail
> network containing hundreds of thousands of users; if he were, he'd
> probably know about Qmail by now (and if he didn't, that'd be grounds
> for firing him).

More to the point, the person who hired him should join him in that
direction

>> Your tripe reminds me of the local sedan (postfix) V SUV (Sendmail), they
>> both get you around town, but once you hit the offroad the sedan is useless.
>
> If you never go offroad, the SUV is overkill.

you aint seen some of the roads around here, and thats just the bitumen
ones, let alone the dirt ones

--

Cheers
Res