I am in Denver, CO, USA. Up until about one year ago (or less) I never
saw an ad for a MySQL DBA. These days, I see a few such ads -
certainly nothing to compare to the number of ads for Oracle or
Microsoft DBAs, but there are a few. I see more jobs for MySQL than
for PostgreSQL.

Although there are many jobs for developers who know MySQL, I don't
see many jobs for "MySQL developers." Usually people look for PHP
developers who also know MySQL.

I never see an ad for a MySQL job that requires a MySQL certification,
but I am sure it would help. Experience, of course, is far more
important. I think MySQL has a better certification program than
Oracle, but Oracle is the heavy-weight champ (right now) any anything
Oracle seems to be much more respected.

I have heard of a survey that finds nearly 50% of Oracle users are
unhappy with Oracle's price structure, and are looking for something
less expensive.

Now that Sun has bought MySQL AB, I have to wonder how that will
affect MySQL certification, and MySQL jobs. MySQL might be seen as
more respectable now that it is owned by a fortune 500.

Finally, I wonder what effect the offshoring craze will have on MySQL
professionals. Unlike other databases, it seems to me that most MySQL
databases are online, where they can be more easily developed, and
administrated by offshore pros.

Anybody have any thoughts on any of this?

walterbyrd wrote:

> Although there are many jobs for developers who know MySQL, I don't
> see many jobs for "MySQL developers." Usually people look for PHP
> developers who also know MySQL.

Think Google had some opportunities for MySQL developers somewhat recently
over in Europe.
But I have to agree that MySQL and PHP goes quite a lot hand in hand, but at
the moment I believe that most of the MySQL use has some kind of PHP based
frontend, which may be the reason that PHP developers with MySQL skills are
what companies wants.


> I never see an ad for a MySQL job that requires a MySQL certification,
> but I am sure it would help.

Maybe the certification is a bit more microsoft-world thing, IMHO
certification has less value when you can get one for almost anything in the
microsoft-world and a certification don't really mean you are good at it...


> Now that Sun has bought MySQL AB, I have to wonder how that will
> affect MySQL certification, and MySQL jobs. MySQL might be seen as
> more respectable now that it is owned by a fortune 500.

I think we will see more Sun solutions that involves MySQL, but how it will
affect MySQL usage outside the web world I don't know, just let time pass and
we will see.


--

//Aho

What is it that you will embark upon, a physical DBA career, or logical
DBA career?

Or a combination of both?

For what it's worth...

My own experience as a MySQL DBA is that you will still need to learn other
database products in order to get a better context & understanding of MySQL's
limitations, and how to work around them. MySQL is appropriate for a lot
of applications, but it also has some real, very real, scaling issues. It
is important to understand exactly what kind of technology is in play when
using MySQL, and how it differs from other database products. You need to
know the database market, the topology, and how MySQL fits in to the vast
landscape of database engines, MySQL being only one of them. Combine along
with that, you need to have a thorough understanding of disk management such
as different RAIDs, SANs, etc. I'm sure you also will want to spend time
managing security in the database, right along with all the other things
you will be doing. I say all this to help you and others to better understand
just exactly what MySQL DBA means, and how it fits into the LAMP landscape.

MySQL presents some very real challenges, in terms of data management,
and there are things you will need to know to understand to be really
good at it. But a lot of MySQL work is defined by developers and we need to
really make sure we're defining DBA work as "what is important to managing
the database", not what is important to developers, although I will agree
that applications drive databases. But developers, while important, and
necessary, should not define what a DBA is or what they do.

If you are good, you will want to shape your responsibility away from
a developer role, simply because in order to scale up, your focus will be
on replication and other strategies to manage the performance. It is a
full time job, and you should make sure that the developers you work with
understand that YOU the DBA are _not_ a developer. You will require them to
be more responsible with their SQL, and how it impacts performance. It is
important to make sure you assert your role, otherwise you will be overrun
by developers who think MySQL can do anything. Coming from a developer
experience will make you stronger, but you must know your role as DBA.

I recently worked with a company that thinks like a lot of dot-coms, MySQL
is invincible, and the ultimate database suitable even for huge amounts of
data, over 100GB in one database. They have performance issues, and have
serious backup/restore challenges, due to the limitations of MySQL. When
they were given guidance, instead of recognizing the issue, they choose to
instead blame the DBA. It can illustrated in a story...

Imagine you are given a beautiful, 3-man fishing boat. It comes with a nice
outboard motor, and even some fishing poles thrown in. One day, you decide to
have a party, and to your surprise, all of the people you invited to the party
decided to bring additional guests. They all agree to get in to your boat,
so that eventually 30 people are in the boat. The boat leaves the dock, and
begins to move into open water. But suddenly, as the boat moves through the
water, it begins to take on water, and now the boat is slowing down, and
you complain that the boat is going slow! we need more speed! But this
is not the real problem is it? The boat is too small! You need a bigger
boat.

The point to all of this is to make sure you define the role of DBA when you
show up for work, and not let somebody else define it for you, or you will be
at the continuous mercy of ever-more demanding developers. Become more of an
architect, and build for scalability, security, and simplicity. Understand
what it takes "by the numbers". Be prepared to scale up, no database ever got
smaller.


-ID-

walterbyrd wrote:
> I am in Denver, CO, USA. Up until about one year ago (or less) I never
> saw an ad for a MySQL DBA. These days, I see a few such ads -
> certainly nothing to compare to the number of ads for Oracle or
> Microsoft DBAs, but there are a few. I see more jobs for MySQL than
> for PostgreSQL.
>
> Although there are many jobs for developers who know MySQL, I don't
> see many jobs for "MySQL developers." Usually people look for PHP
> developers who also know MySQL.
>
> I never see an ad for a MySQL job that requires a MySQL certification,
> but I am sure it would help. Experience, of course, is far more
> important. I think MySQL has a better certification program than
> Oracle, but Oracle is the heavy-weight champ (right now) any anything
> Oracle seems to be much more respected.
>
> I have heard of a survey that finds nearly 50% of Oracle users are
> unhappy with Oracle's price structure, and are looking for something
> less expensive.
>
> Now that Sun has bought MySQL AB, I have to wonder how that will
> affect MySQL certification, and MySQL jobs. MySQL might be seen as
> more respectable now that it is owned by a fortune 500.
>
> Finally, I wonder what effect the offshoring craze will have on MySQL
> professionals. Unlike other databases, it seems to me that most MySQL
> databases are online, where they can be more easily developed, and
> administrated by offshore pros.
>
> Anybody have any thoughts on any of this?
>

Thanks for very informative posts.

Presently, I am a UNIX/Linux sysadmin, but I am becoming dissatisfied,
with insanely increasing demands, and dwindling pay. I know standard
SQL fairly well. I have used several databases, including MySQL, but I
am not an expert with any of them.

If my last two interviews are any indication, then DBA duties are
being added to the long, long, list of job requirements for sysadmins.
My last interview was for a Linux SA, I was interviewed by two senior
Oracle DBAs, and all they asked about was my experience in optimizing
queries, and managing Oracle user accounts, etc. My interview before
that, was nearly the same, except with PostgreSQL. Employers in
Colorado, seem to want SAs to also do the job as DBAs - only for a lot
less pay.

One thing that concerns me about MySQL, is that MySQL is used mostly
for web-work. And that would be the easiest work to outsource. Sites
like rentacoder are filed with ads to hire MySQL experts for about $1/
hour, or even less. And those contracts are being filed. Another thing
that concerns me is that MySQL users are probably more cost sensitive
than Oracle users. Which means that MySQL companies are more likely to
look for super-cheap labor.

A lot of DBAs think it's a bad idea to have DBA work done by SAs, or
super-cheap offhore labor, but what matters is what the PHBs think.

Of course, I am just speculating about this.

Hey,

walterbyrd wrote:

[snip]

> Anybody have any thoughts on any of this?

If you are a really tough guy and want a job where you have to deal with
MySQL, apply for a job at MySQL!

I.e. we, the Support team are always looking for experienced people. And
don't think MySQL Support is like other support. Nearly all of us have a
strong DBA background. And we need it. We are not just reading the manual
for our customers. We do performance tuning, bug verification and much more.

see: http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/...ysql-bugs.html


BTW, my career started as PHP developer for a small internet startup. Then I
became sysadmin, later MySQL specialist in the sysadmin group. We never had
a MySQL DBA. When the startup was finally sold (out) I hired at MySQL and I
never had regrets with this decision!


XL
--
Axel Schwenke, Support Engineer, MySQL AB

Online User Manual: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/
MySQL User Forums: http://forums.mysql.com/

> If you are a really tough guy and want a job where you have to deal with
> MySQL, apply for a job at MySQL!

I guess that means we both work at Sun. Although I am just a temporary
contractor.

walterbyrd wrote:
> Thanks for very informative posts.
>
> Presently, I am a UNIX/Linux sysadmin, but I am becoming dissatisfied,
> with insanely increasing demands, and dwindling pay. I know standard
> SQL fairly well. I have used several databases, including MySQL, but I
> am not an expert with any of them.
>
> If my last two interviews are any indication, then DBA duties are
> being added to the long, long, list of job requirements for sysadmins.
> My last interview was for a Linux SA, I was interviewed by two senior
> Oracle DBAs, and all they asked about was my experience in optimizing
> queries, and managing Oracle user accounts, etc. My interview before
> that, was nearly the same, except with PostgreSQL. Employers in
> Colorado, seem to want SAs to also do the job as DBAs - only for a lot
> less pay.
>

Even worse you could become an employee, instead of contractor, and the
employer pays for 8, and gets 16 for free. ( 24x7) What is happening is really
indicative of a much larger problem, but again I stress, stay within your
role and don't let other people define what a DBA is to you. Make sure too
that you get paid for your time, don't get suckered into an employee arrangement
that ends up with you working all hours of the day and night and not getting
paid for it. This is a popular trick with employers, putting you on all kinds
of free-time obligations and rotations that they don't have to pay for.

You should have a clear idea of what the DBA is, and what it is not. You should
not be doing SQL performance tuning yourself, rather you should be monitoring
and policing. SQL performance is each and every developers' responsibility.
SQL performance is everyone's responsibility, but for the DBA it should not
be something you spend your day on. Rather you should be tending to good
backups that can restore, security, and replication. If you take yourself
away from these core responsibilities, it can't be tied up in wading through
poorly constructed SQL, this is the domain of the developers, and they should
be taking responsibility for their SQL. If they can't figure out why their
code sucks, this is their problem. Put it squarely back on them to write
code that works.

As to combining roles with SA, again, you must define your role as DBA before
you walk in the door. You should have a definite answer for how the database
operation will work best, with what you are doing. This puts you in the
drivers' seat, instead of letting developers define your role based on what
they think is important, and even more, what they don't know because they
are not DBAs. Their agenda is to exploit the database, and put you off
balance if possible for bad performance. This is something you will need to
nip in the bud. Know your role, know it well, and take charge.



> One thing that concerns me about MySQL, is that MySQL is used mostly
> for web-work. And that would be the easiest work to outsource. Sites
> like rentacoder are filed with ads to hire MySQL experts for about $1/
> hour, or even less. And those contracts are being filed. Another thing
> that concerns me is that MySQL users are probably more cost sensitive
> than Oracle users. Which means that MySQL companies are more likely to
> look for super-cheap labor.
>

Yes, again you need to define your role, not let it be defined by such
things as how cheap the database is. Push to make sure you can have the
proper contracts in place with MySQL, for paid support! Just because the
database is free doesn't mean that supporting it is not important. Push
to have 3rd-party tools and products in place to help MySQL fit in to what
it is that the developers are trying to accomplish. Certainly you need to
take charge as DBA, knowing your role, understanding what works and what
doesn't work for your applications. If you hit the wall you need to take
a stand and show your team how to overcome limitations. This may mean a
code rewrite or architectural change, you need to assert yourself, and make
sure people understand the real limitations that will arise.


> A lot of DBAs think it's a bad idea to have DBA work done by SAs, or
> super-cheap offhore labor, but what matters is what the PHBs think.
>
> Of course, I am just speculating about this.

I'm not sure what a PHB is, but in a perfect world there are System
Administrators, Network Engineers, and Database Administrators, all working
together to take care of business. There are certainly others involved in
this, but that's not the point, the point is, you should interview the company
you are thinking about working for, and ask them tough questions, interviewing
THEM as much as they are interviewing YOU. DBA is defined ahead of the interview,
and clearly defines what your responsibilities. If you don't know what that is,
then you will either miss getting the job, or be slaughtered once you accept it,
if it ever gets that far.

Good luck to you, and your career! Don't be defined by the job, define the
job by you!


-ID-

In article <sSdlj.739$dU1.394@fe046.usenetserver.com>,
InDeep <indeep@indeep.com> wrote:

> walterbyrd wrote:
> > Thanks for very informative posts.
> >
> > Presently, I am a UNIX/Linux sysadmin, but I am becoming dissatisfied,
> > with insanely increasing demands, and dwindling pay. I know standard
> > SQL fairly well. I have used several databases, including MySQL, but I
> > am not an expert with any of them.
> >
> > If my last two interviews are any indication, then DBA duties are
> > being added to the long, long, list of job requirements for sysadmins.
> > My last interview was for a Linux SA, I was interviewed by two senior
> > Oracle DBAs, and all they asked about was my experience in optimizing
> > queries, and managing Oracle user accounts, etc. My interview before
> > that, was nearly the same, except with PostgreSQL. Employers in
> > Colorado, seem to want SAs to also do the job as DBAs - only for a lot
> > less pay.
> >
>
> Even worse you could become an employee, instead of contractor, and the
> employer pays for 8, and gets 16 for free. ( 24x7) What is happening is
> really
> indicative of a much larger problem, but again I stress, stay within your
> role and don't let other people define what a DBA is to you. Make sure too
> that you get paid for your time, don't get suckered into an employee
> arrangement
> that ends up with you working all hours of the day and night and not getting
> paid for it. This is a popular trick with employers, putting you on all
> kinds
> of free-time obligations and rotations that they don't have to pay for.
>
> You should have a clear idea of what the DBA is, and what it is not. You
> should
> not be doing SQL performance tuning yourself, rather you should be monitoring
> and policing. SQL performance is each and every developers' responsibility.
> SQL performance is everyone's responsibility, but for the DBA it should not
> be something you spend your day on. Rather you should be tending to good
> backups that can restore, security, and replication. If you take yourself
> away from these core responsibilities, it can't be tied up in wading through
> poorly constructed SQL, this is the domain of the developers, and they should
> be taking responsibility for their SQL. If they can't figure out why their
> code sucks, this is their problem. Put it squarely back on them to write
> code that works.
>
> As to combining roles with SA, again, you must define your role as DBA before
> you walk in the door. You should have a definite answer for how the database
> operation will work best, with what you are doing. This puts you in the
> drivers' seat, instead of letting developers define your role based on what
> they think is important, and even more, what they don't know because they
> are not DBAs. Their agenda is to exploit the database, and put you off
> balance if possible for bad performance. This is something you will need to
> nip in the bud. Know your role, know it well, and take charge.
>
>
>
> > One thing that concerns me about MySQL, is that MySQL is used mostly
> > for web-work. And that would be the easiest work to outsource. Sites
> > like rentacoder are filed with ads to hire MySQL experts for about $1/
> > hour, or even less. And those contracts are being filed. Another thing
> > that concerns me is that MySQL users are probably more cost sensitive
> > than Oracle users. Which means that MySQL companies are more likely to
> > look for super-cheap labor.
> >
>
> Yes, again you need to define your role, not let it be defined by such
> things as how cheap the database is. Push to make sure you can have the
> proper contracts in place with MySQL, for paid support! Just because the
> database is free doesn't mean that supporting it is not important. Push
> to have 3rd-party tools and products in place to help MySQL fit in to what
> it is that the developers are trying to accomplish. Certainly you need to
> take charge as DBA, knowing your role, understanding what works and what
> doesn't work for your applications. If you hit the wall you need to take
> a stand and show your team how to overcome limitations. This may mean a
> code rewrite or architectural change, you need to assert yourself, and make
> sure people understand the real limitations that will arise.
>
>
> > A lot of DBAs think it's a bad idea to have DBA work done by SAs, or
> > super-cheap offhore labor, but what matters is what the PHBs think.
> >
> > Of course, I am just speculating about this.
>
> I'm not sure what a PHB is, but in a perfect world there are System
> Administrators, Network Engineers, and Database Administrators, all working
> together to take care of business. There are certainly others involved in
> this, but that's not the point, the point is, you should interview the
> company
> you are thinking about working for, and ask them tough questions,
> interviewing
> THEM as much as they are interviewing YOU. DBA is defined ahead of the
> interview,
> and clearly defines what your responsibilities. If you don't know what that
> is,
> then you will either miss getting the job, or be slaughtered once you accept
> it,
> if it ever gets that far.
>
> Good luck to you, and your career! Don't be defined by the job, define the
> job by you!
>
>
> -ID-

You're not so "InDeep" if you've never heard of a PHB. It's even on
Google.

Anyway, to the OP, I double what InDeep is saying. It was this way back
in 2000 when I last worked in the field. I see nothing changes. Except
some bean counters thing they're going to get a real production quality
DBA who can tune a database (which you can tune but you can't tune a
fish) AND manage their servers. The Sysadmin/Oracle DBA combo goes for
$100K-$150K easy in my area (2000 prices). If you're doing both for
$20/hour, you're being cheated.

--
DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...

On Jan 22, 1:56 am, Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> In article <sSdlj.739$dU1....@fe046.usenetserver.com>,

> The Sysadmin/Oracle DBA combo goes for
> $100K-$150K easy in my area (2000 prices). If you're doing both for
> $20/hour, you're being cheated.

Here in Denver, I have seen ads for experienced Oracle DBAs with a
salaries as high as $140K.

But, employers advertise for standard sysadmin jobs (about $30/hr
these days) then when I go to the interview, I am informed that they
want the sysadmin to do all sorts of DBA duties, and I am blind-sided
with all DBA questions.

In today's IT job market, it is *very* strongly a buyer's market. I
don't know if you are keeping up with the news, but there are massive
layoffs all over.

January 15: Applied Materials announced that they would Cut 1,000
Jobs. Also Nokia announced that it will layoff 2,300 employees at its
German production plant.

January 18: Sprint announced plans to lay off 4000 employees.

January 21: National Semiconductor announced they would Cut 200 Jobs.
Yahoo also announced a few hundred Yahoo employees are about to get
the ax.

According to a few articles that I read, these are the biggest layoffs
since the Y2K fallout.

In Los Angeles it is still very much a candidate market. However,
there are a lot of idiot recruiters there, most who waste your time.
Be careful with the ones who act like they have in-roads into a position
only to find out that they are going through another firm. LA has too
many recruiters going for the same positions.

If you're good you will be fine even with the 'recession'. Every
economy has cycles, and we may be headed into hiring freezes, which
makes it even better for consultants since headcount will be frozen,
but contractor and consultant money won't be.


walterbyrd wrote:
> On Jan 22, 1:56 am, Michael Vilain <vil...@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
>> In article <sSdlj.739$dU1....@fe046.usenetserver.com>,
>
>> The Sysadmin/Oracle DBA combo goes for
>> $100K-$150K easy in my area (2000 prices). If you're doing both for
>> $20/hour, you're being cheated.
>
> Here in Denver, I have seen ads for experienced Oracle DBAs with a
> salaries as high as $140K.
>
> But, employers advertise for standard sysadmin jobs (about $30/hr
> these days) then when I go to the interview, I am informed that they
> want the sysadmin to do all sorts of DBA duties, and I am blind-sided
> with all DBA questions.
>
> In today's IT job market, it is *very* strongly a buyer's market. I
> don't know if you are keeping up with the news, but there are massive
> layoffs all over.
>
> January 15: Applied Materials announced that they would Cut 1,000
> Jobs. Also Nokia announced that it will layoff 2,300 employees at its
> German production plant.
>
> January 18: Sprint announced plans to lay off 4000 employees.
>
> January 21: National Semiconductor announced they would Cut 200 Jobs.
> Yahoo also announced a few hundred Yahoo employees are about to get
> the ax.
>
> According to a few articles that I read, these are the biggest layoffs
> since the Y2K fallout.