Hi there folks.

I've been given the task of looking at the disk format (on Windows)
for oracle backups. We need this format to write a porting tool of
sorts.

Can anyone point me in the direction of this information (if it
exsits).

Thanks very much.

Peter Nunn

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:25:51 +1000, Peter Nunn <pnunn@pncomputing.net>
wrote:

>Hi there folks.
>
>I've been given the task of looking at the disk format (on Windows)
>for oracle backups. We need this format to write a porting tool of
>sorts.
>
>Can anyone point me in the direction of this information (if it
>exsits).
>
>Thanks very much.
>
>Peter Nunn

Oracle backups are not portable. PERIOD.
Exports are portable though.


Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA

To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address

Sybrand Bakker wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:25:51 +1000, Peter Nunn <pnunn@pncomputing.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi there folks.
> >
> >I've been given the task of looking at the disk format (on Windows)
> >for oracle backups. We need this format to write a porting tool of
> >sorts.
> >
> >Can anyone point me in the direction of this information (if it
> >exsits).
> >
> >Thanks very much.
> >
> >Peter Nunn
>
> Oracle backups are not portable. PERIOD.
> Exports are portable though.
>
> Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
>
> To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address

Except for transportable tablespaces. But that is in a highly restrictive
situation.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
damorgan@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Peter Nunn <pnunn@pncomputing.net> wrote

> I've been given the task of looking at the disk format (on Windows)
> for oracle backups. We need this format to write a porting tool of
> sorts.

What you are indirectly asking for, is the internal Oracle format for
all its binary files. And that you will not get, not matter the
temperature in hell.

You can not take an Oracle datafile from one platform and "port" it to
another. Period.

If that is not what you're after Peter, then we will need more
details.

The basics.

Porting data from one Oracle platform to another. Oracle Export and
Import. Or a dblink. Or replication.

Porting data from Oracle to any other platform and/or database. CSV
spool files (easily done with SQL*Plus). These files can be loaded
using bcp for SQL-Server or SQL*Loader for Oracle. Alternatively using
Oracle Transparent Gateways - which means you can push the data to
SQL-Server/Informix/etc from Oracle via the Gateway.

What I really would like to know is the business reason behind this
request and what business benefits this will result in.

--
Billy

At least in the case of Oracle and Microsoft you will find that their
lawyers jump on you if you are at all successful. The binary formats they
use are proprietory.


--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
"Peter Nunn" <pnunn@pncomputing.net> wrote in message
news:b1nmjv4tjadutoj6abt7o3sd4dsu6i7skl@4ax.com...
> Thanks Billy for this information (and all others too naturally).
>
> I'm after the backup format because I'm thinking about producing a
> product that can open backup files from all the major database
> manufacturers, view their structure and report on that (sort of an
> integrity scanner if you like).
>
> I've come to the conclusion that the native formats are going to be
> hard, but am wondering if the backup formats would be worth a look.
>
> I'm going to try and do a binary dump of a backup, but if someone has
> already cracked it, it would save a lot of time.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Peter.
>
> vslabs@onwe.co.za (Billy Verreynne) wrote:
>
> >Peter Nunn <pnunn@pncomputing.net> wrote
> >
> >> I've been given the task of looking at the disk format (on Windows)
> >> for oracle backups. We need this format to write a porting tool of
> >> sorts.
> >
> >What you are indirectly asking for, is the internal Oracle format for
> >all its binary files. And that you will not get, not matter the
> >temperature in hell.
> >
> >You can not take an Oracle datafile from one platform and "port" it to
> >another. Period.
> >
> >If that is not what you're after Peter, then we will need more
> >details.
> >
> >The basics.
> >
> >Porting data from one Oracle platform to another. Oracle Export and
> >Import. Or a dblink. Or replication.
> >
> >Porting data from Oracle to any other platform and/or database. CSV
> >spool files (easily done with SQL*Plus). These files can be loaded
> >using bcp for SQL-Server or SQL*Loader for Oracle. Alternatively using
> >Oracle Transparent Gateways - which means you can push the data to
> >SQL-Server/Informix/etc from Oracle via the Gateway.
> >
> >What I really would like to know is the business reason behind this
> >request and what business benefits this will result in.
>

"Ben Hutchings" <do-not-spam-benh@bwsint.com> wrote in message
news:slrnbjneku.1e8.do-not-spam-benh@tin.bwsint.com...
> In article <3f3ba972$0$18488$ed9e5944@reading.news.pipex.net> ,
> Niall Litchfield wrote:
> > At least in the case of Oracle and Microsoft you will find that their
> > lawyers jump on you if you are at all successful.
>
> Evidence?

show me a 3rd party product that reads and extracts data from these files
without a license, or using the suppliers packages.

> > The binary formats they use are proprietory.
>
> Of course. However, restrictions on interoperability are generally
> considered anticompetitive and unenforceable.

In one sense true, but then as both Oracle and MS provide a myriad of ways
to access relational data without reverse engineering file formats -
interoperability is hardly a problem.


--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
*****************************************
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer
******************************************

On 14 Aug 2003 16:36:13 GMT, Ben Hutchings
<do-not-spam-benh@bwsint.com> wrote:

>Evidence?
>


Come on. Obviously you don't ever read a license
>> The binary formats they use are proprietory.
>
>Of course. However, restrictions on interoperability are generally
>considered anticompetitive and unenforceable.

I'm pretty sure they are quite enforceable. When they sue you, you
will loose, mister, because you violated the license. How about that?


Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA

To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address

Peter Nunn <pnunn@pncomputing.net> wrote

> I'm after the backup format because I'm thinking about producing a
> product that can open backup files from all the major database
> manufacturers, view their structure and report on that (sort of an
> integrity scanner if you like).
>
> I've come to the conclusion that the native formats are going to be
> hard, but am wondering if the backup formats would be worth a look.

Oracle does not have a separate backup format. Nor does SQL-Server or
Informix as far as I can recall.

In all these products, you have binary data files making up a
database. In some cases, raw devices.

Backup means making a _physical_ copy of that file or raw device to
backup media (usually also compressing it).

It also gets a tad more complex. In Oracle we do not just backup a
copy of the physical database data file. Instead we also backup binary
files called Archive Logs - these contain the transactions that have
been applied. And can be used to reconstruct the database files using
an older physical backup of those files.

Then there are logical backups such as exports and sql-dumps. But
these are very seldom use as the prefered method to backup an entire
database.

> I'm going to try and do a binary dump of a backup, but if someone has
> already cracked it, it would save a lot of time.

Besides the legal issues with reverse engineering these formats,
there's also the issue of these formats changing between product
versions.. and becoming increasingly complex. Cracking the data file
format of Oracle 9 will take many man months.. by which time Oracle
10G will be released..

What business benefit will you be able to provide with such a product?
Even if you can sell it commercially without legal repercussions? How
will you convince customers that your product can correctly
process/check the db vendor's physical data files when said vendor is
not a partner and did not provide you with the actual data file
formats?

Customers want to have data security. They do not want to "view" the
contents of the data they secure - that is the job of the db engine.
And it does a fine job of that by providing transactions and data
integrity.

Backup software has the ability to provide backup integrity (after
writing a block to backup media, reading the block from that media and
comparing it with the block in memory to ensure integrity).

--
Billy

In article <b90ojvoht8a8gg4o6cmg45qdd6skdjvjdc@4ax.com>,
Sybrand Bakker wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2003 16:36:13 GMT, Ben Hutchings
><do-not-spam-benh@bwsint.com> wrote:
>
>>Evidence?
>>
>
>
> Come on. Obviously you don't ever read a license

I do read licenses. I also know that most of the boiler-plate legalese
found in such licenses has not been tested in court and may not be
enforceable (outside those US states that passed UCITA into law).

>>> The binary formats they use are proprietory.
>>
>>Of course. However, restrictions on interoperability are generally
>>considered anticompetitive and unenforceable.
>
> I'm pretty sure they are quite enforceable. When they sue you, you
> will loose, mister, because you violated the license. How about that?

What makes you so sure? Please cite a case.

vslabs@onwe.co.za (Billy Verreynne) wrote in message news:<1a75df45.0308142155.664bcd50@posting.google. com>...
> Peter Nunn <pnunn@pncomputing.net> wrote
>
> > I'm after the backup format because I'm thinking about producing a
> > product that can open backup files from all the major database
> > manufacturers, view their structure and report on that (sort of an
> > integrity scanner if you like).
> >
> > I've come to the conclusion that the native formats are going to be
> > hard, but am wondering if the backup formats would be worth a look.
>
> Oracle does not have a separate backup format. Nor does SQL-Server or
> Informix as far as I can recall.

Well, what about those backupset thingies that RMAN makes? :-)

Not only are they binary, they're interleaved copies of the binary
Oracle db blocks!

To the OP: There are docs floating about showing the format of blocks
within the files, but if you don't already know about such things,
take a tip from Deteriorata: "Give up." It will take a number of
engineers a number of man-years to figure it all out, and concommitant
lawyers, marketers, QA, oh yeah, a product manager and so on. Several
million bucks, back-of-the-envelope. Might as well finance a
videogame, at least then you could convince investors you have a
chance of hitting a homer.


> Besides the legal issues with reverse engineering these formats,
> there's also the issue of these formats changing between product
> versions.. and becoming increasingly complex. Cracking the data file
> format of Oracle 9 will take many man months.. by which time Oracle
> 10G will be released..

Oh yeah, forgot the maint costs on the back-of-the-envelope! Well,
that's just some poor old guy :-)

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
Or talk to Eyal, maybe he's already got some project like that. :-)