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Paul Floyd wrote:
> On Fri, 2 May 2008 22:25:30 -0700 (PDT), James Tabak <jamej12@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 2, 3:44 pm, "santiago...@yahoo.com" <santiago...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Shares are down 20% this morning. I see all around migration from
>>> Solaris to Linux, but have yet to see the reverse. Usage of Solaris
>>> x86 seems to be confined largely to enthusiasts, much as OS/2 and
>>> BeOS. Most young computer savvy people I know love Linux and despise
>>> Sun.
>>>
>>> Every indication is that Solaris is moribund :-(
>> - I seriously think Solaris 10 is the best general purpose OS out
>> there. Microsoft stumbles more and more and offers weaker
>> technology. I haven't run Linux for several years. I'm simply not
>> impressed by Linux, especially as it compares Solaris w/ ZFS. Solaris
>> also has the best documentation. Add to these considerations -
>> Hypervisor and Solaris really should be growing at a pretty steady
>> rate. I don't see a better alternative out there.
>
> I agree with your sentiments concerning the technical merits of Solaris.
> But there is still one problem, and it's a biggy. In a word - mindshare.
> I've been using Solaris at home on my PC for the best part of the last
> 10 years. At work, we mainly use Linux and Solaris SPARC. Most of our
> engineers only ever experienced Solaris 8. So the impression that most
> of them have is that Solaris is antiquated, and the hardware that it
> runs on [workstations] somehow manages to be dog slow AND 2 or 3 times
> more expensive than a vanilla Dell Linux workstation. Most of them don't
> even know that Solaris exists on x86/64. We don't exactly have customers
> beating our doors down demanding Solaris x86/64 versions of our software
> either.
>
> A bientot
> Paul

This is reminiscent of the "death" of OpenVMS back in the late 1980s or
early 1990s. People started posting "VMS is dead". There have been
several major releases since then and OpenVMS is *still* available from
H-P although you may have some trouble finding an H-P employee who has
even heard of it.

It may be true that Solaris is "dead" but it will be many long years
before the corpse decomposes to the point of uselessness!

It just struck me that DEC changed the name of VMS to "OpenVMS" around
the time people began proclaiming the "death" of VMS. Sun recently, in
the last year or two, started calling Solaris, "Open Solaris". Do you
suppose it's just a coincidence that Solaris is now "dying" or "dead"?

"Paul Floyd" <root@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:slrng1pfnq.lr.root@tryfan.orange.fr...
> On Fri, 2 May 2008 22:25:30 -0700 (PDT), James Tabak <jamej12@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On May 2, 3:44 pm, "santiago...@yahoo.com" <santiago...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Shares are down 20% this morning. I see all around migration from
>>> Solaris to Linux, but have yet to see the reverse. Usage of Solaris
>>> x86 seems to be confined largely to enthusiasts, much as OS/2 and
>>> BeOS. Most young computer savvy people I know love Linux and despise
>>> Sun.
>>>
>>> Every indication is that Solaris is moribund :-(
>>
>> - I seriously think Solaris 10 is the best general purpose OS out
>> there. Microsoft stumbles more and more and offers weaker
>> technology. I haven't run Linux for several years. I'm simply not
>> impressed by Linux, especially as it compares Solaris w/ ZFS. Solaris
>> also has the best documentation. Add to these considerations -
>> Hypervisor and Solaris really should be growing at a pretty steady
>> rate. I don't see a better alternative out there.
>
> I agree with your sentiments concerning the technical merits of Solaris.
> But there is still one problem, and it's a biggy. In a word - mindshare.
> I've been using Solaris at home on my PC for the best part of the last
> 10 years. At work, we mainly use Linux and Solaris SPARC. Most of our
> engineers only ever experienced Solaris 8. So the impression that most
> of them have is that Solaris is antiquated, and the hardware that it
> runs on [workstations] somehow manages to be dog slow AND 2 or 3 times
> more expensive than a vanilla Dell Linux workstation. Most of them don't
> even know that Solaris exists on x86/64. We don't exactly have customers
> beating our doors down demanding Solaris x86/64 versions of our software
> either.

Perhaps if you produced a version of your software for Solaris x86 they
might come... I say this as I hear you. Solaris, while being a great OS
does not seem to be making it into x86 acceptance. Me, I have used Solaris
x86 professionally and at home since Solaris 7. And where the applications
are available, I use x86.

SPARC is dying. First off, a modern day dual/quad x86 has the same or more
compute power than many a SPARC, and SPARC costs are not liable to come
down.

Which drives most people to Linux. Which of course I run also.

Canuck57 wrote:
> "Paul Floyd" <root@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> news:slrng1pfnq.lr.root@tryfan.orange.fr...
>> On Fri, 2 May 2008 22:25:30 -0700 (PDT), James Tabak <jamej12@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On May 2, 3:44 pm, "santiago...@yahoo.com" <santiago...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Shares are down 20% this morning. I see all around migration from
>>>> Solaris to Linux, but have yet to see the reverse. Usage of Solaris
>>>> x86 seems to be confined largely to enthusiasts, much as OS/2 and
>>>> BeOS. Most young computer savvy people I know love Linux and despise
>>>> Sun.
>>>>
>>>> Every indication is that Solaris is moribund :-(
>>> - I seriously think Solaris 10 is the best general purpose OS out
>>> there. Microsoft stumbles more and more and offers weaker
>>> technology. I haven't run Linux for several years. I'm simply not
>>> impressed by Linux, especially as it compares Solaris w/ ZFS. Solaris
>>> also has the best documentation. Add to these considerations -
>>> Hypervisor and Solaris really should be growing at a pretty steady
>>> rate. I don't see a better alternative out there.
>> I agree with your sentiments concerning the technical merits of Solaris.
>> But there is still one problem, and it's a biggy. In a word - mindshare.
>> I've been using Solaris at home on my PC for the best part of the last
>> 10 years. At work, we mainly use Linux and Solaris SPARC. Most of our
>> engineers only ever experienced Solaris 8. So the impression that most
>> of them have is that Solaris is antiquated, and the hardware that it
>> runs on [workstations] somehow manages to be dog slow AND 2 or 3 times
>> more expensive than a vanilla Dell Linux workstation. Most of them don't
>> even know that Solaris exists on x86/64. We don't exactly have customers
>> beating our doors down demanding Solaris x86/64 versions of our software
>> either.
>
> Perhaps if you produced a version of your software for Solaris x86 they
> might come... I say this as I hear you. Solaris, while being a great OS
> does not seem to be making it into x86 acceptance. Me, I have used Solaris
> x86 professionally and at home since Solaris 7. And where the applications
> are available, I use x86.
>
> SPARC is dying. First off, a modern day dual/quad x86 has the same or more
> compute power than many a SPARC, and SPARC costs are not liable to come
> down.
>
> Which drives most people to Linux. Which of course I run also.
>

My former job involved integrating our companies software on ship board
consoles for the U.S. Navy. Those had been based on customized versions
of Solaris 8 (sparc). They were in the process of upgrading to x86
architecture at the time I left and there was some deliberation as to
whether to go with Solaris 10 or Linux, but finally Linux won out,
because the Solaris was an uncommon choice and COTS for Linux is much
more widely available.

I believe this is the exact reason for Windows' marketplace dominance.
It is, always has been, and probably always will be a piece of crap OS,
inferior to anything else out there. But everyone is familiar with it
and it has every piece of software ever written available for it.

Every day Linux goes more and more mainstream. More and more vendors are
making Linux versions available for their products in addition to
Windows and Mac, to the point that now I could probably give a Linux box
to all my family members who don't even know why you need RAM if you
have so much hard disk space. Absolutely nothing for Solaris x86.

And every day it seems Solaris is more and more relegated to the dustbin
of history. I recall in the 90s, electronic classrooms were filled with
Sun workstations. Now, good luck finding even one.

The only versions of Solaris I ever dealt with in my current and past
job were Solaris 8, mostly to support our clients' legacy systems. It
doesn't matter at all how good a product is (IMHO any Linux distro is a
piece of crap compared with Solaris 10), there are bigger, broader
forces at play.

Hi guys.
I've read all the posts so far and I'm amazed.
I work in the telecom industry for several years.
ALL the telecom\cellular\ISP and other companies i know use solaris on
more than 90% of their servers.
Some of you write that many ppl know only Solaris 7\8 and this is
their perception of the Sun's os.
It maybe true for some places. But the picture i see is very
different. Sun has done a good job to push Solaris10.
I also know many startups and and small companies that have moved to
Solaris on x86. Mostly porting from Linux due to performance problems
and scalability. There is no virtualisation method yet that has the
same advantages and almost zero overhead like Zones.
The problem is that few talk about it openly.
I get the feeling that many ppl think that anything else than Linux is
"uncool" for some reason.
Despite what you say, i see a rising of Solaris in the next 3-4 years.
I might even say it will replace Linux in many companies.
You are right, Solaris is dying.
But those are all the Solaris 7/8/9 boxes.
Solaris 10 is rising, it sells more that REDHAT ! And i guess it
haven't even reached 30% of it's commercial potential.

BTW, i use OpenSolaris on my laptop and home PC.

On May 2, 12:10 pm, "Colin B." <cbi...@somewhereelse.shaw.ca> wrote:
> Basically, Sun has two products: Solaris and Sparc [...]

How come they didn't change their sticker symbol to either product?

-RFH

On May 3, 3:47 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> It just struck me that DEC changed the name of VMS to "OpenVMS" around
> the time people began proclaiming the "death" of VMS. Sun recently, in
> the last year or two, started calling Solaris, "Open Solaris". Do you
> suppose it's just a coincidence that Solaris is now "dying" or "dead"?


Good point, but I think you may have the cause-effect relationship
backwards. When the company realizes that its product is being
perceived as too proprietary, it slaps the label "Open" to it:

- OpenVMS
- OpenSolaris
- OOXML

-Ramon

"Dime de que te jactas, y te dire de que careces"
("If you don't have it, flaunt it!")

On 2008-05-04, santiago538 <santiago538@yahoo.com> wrote:
> IMHO, Sun sure as hell better help Solaris users migrate from SPARC to
> x86 in every way it can.

No, thanks. Yes, we have Solaris 10/x86 running on a x86-based Sun
server and various PCs vom HP. But we still prefer the SPARC platform.
To give one of the many points where I am far better served by a
SPARC-based system:

SPARC-based Suns come with a so-called open boot prom monitor that
provides a simple command line oriented interface (as in a shell). This
interface can be accessed over a serial line, in case of servers through
some lights-off-management system (LOM), and partially through the command
line from Solaris (see eeprom(1m)). This interface comes with powerful
diagnostics tools and even a fully fledged Forth interpreter. Newer
incarnations of the LOM can even be accessed through the SSH protocol
which allows you to login via ssh and get access to the console.

Do you will get the same access level on a x86 architecture? No! Well,
x86-based servers from Suns come nowadays likewise with a LOM interface
and they provide even a SSH interface. However, the x86 architecture
unlike the SPARC platform has no simple console interface but requires
a graphical VGA-based interface. This cannot be supported through a SSH
session. Sun solved this problem by providing additionally an https
interface with some magic that virtualizes the VGA interface to a Java
application that is spawned from the web interface. This was certainly
a hard piece of work but it is a mess. For this kind of access you will
need X, a Java-supported web browser, lots of bandwith, and you will end
up with a crappy interface where you will have significant trouble to
move the virtual mouse. All this stops me from accessing the console if
I come from my network at home.

Andreas.

P.S.: And, BTW, did you ever take a look at this benchmark?
http://www.spec.org/web2005/results/web2005.html

pavelj wrote:
> Hi guys.
> I've read all the posts so far and I'm amazed.
> I work in the telecom industry for several years.
> ALL the telecom\cellular\ISP and other companies i know use solaris on
> more than 90% of their servers.

That's true. I Sweden the big telco company, E///, ships Sun and Solaris
systems all over the world. The stand for +50% of Sun sales in Sweden

> Some of you write that many ppl know only Solaris 7\8 and this is
> their perception of the Sun's os.
> It maybe true for some places. But the picture i see is very
> different. Sun has done a good job to push Solaris10.
> I also know many startups and and small companies that have moved to
> Solaris on x86. Mostly porting from Linux due to performance problems
> and scalability. There is no virtualisation method yet that has the
> same advantages and almost zero overhead like Zones.
> The problem is that few talk about it openly.
> I get the feeling that many ppl think that anything else than Linux is
> "uncool" for some reason.

And how cool is Linux, really? Hardy Heron hasn't any really new cool
features. They and stuck with providing minor updates and drivers and
nothing really cool is coming from there.

The Linux advocates should have a look at OpenSolaris 2008.05

> Despite what you say, i see a rising of Solaris in the next 3-4 years.
> I might even say it will replace Linux in many companies.
> You are right, Solaris is dying.
> But those are all the Solaris 7/8/9 boxes.
> Solaris 10 is rising, it sells more that REDHAT ! And i guess it
> haven't even reached 30% of it's commercial potential.
>
> BTW, i use OpenSolaris on my laptop and home PC.

Me too, since almost 3 years... (although I'm on my WinXP at the moment
to test VirtualBox and OpenSolaris in there)

comp.unix.solaris@expires-on-2008-05...as-borchert.de
(Andreas F. Borchert) writes:

> Do you will get the same access level on a x86 architecture? No! Well,
> x86-based servers from Suns come nowadays likewise with a LOM interface
> and they provide even a SSH interface. However, the x86 architecture
> unlike the SPARC platform has no simple console interface but requires
> a graphical VGA-based interface. This cannot be supported through a SSH
> session.

Wrong and wrong. At least on our X4100s the ILOM provides a serial
console which can be accessed via SSH login into the service
processor. And the graphical console (it is horrible, I concede) can be
tunneled via SSH (three ports suffice) - been there, done that, no
T-shirt though.


Sebastian

On 2008-05-06 18:55:10 +0100, Sebastian Hanigk <hanigk@in.tum.de> said:

> comp.unix.solaris@expires-on-2008-05...as-borchert.de
> (Andreas F. Borchert) writes:
>
>> Do you will get the same access level on a x86 architecture? No! Well,
>> x86-based servers from Suns come nowadays likewise with a LOM interface
>> and they provide even a SSH interface. However, the x86 architecture
>> unlike the SPARC platform has no simple console interface but requires
>> a graphical VGA-based interface. This cannot be supported through a SSH
>> session.
>
> Wrong and wrong. At least on our X4100s the ILOM provides a serial
> console which can be accessed via SSH login into the service
> processor. And the graphical console (it is horrible, I concede) can be
> tunneled via SSH (three ports suffice) - been there, done that, no
> T-shirt though.

Don't EFI-based systems provide support for sophisticated LOMs?

Cheers,

Chris