would seem like a good idea, no ?

http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalin...s-no-bugzilla/

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Raphaël Jacquot wrote:
> would seem like a good idea, no ?
>
> http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalin...s-no-bugzilla/
>

Before you come trolling on this (or any other) subject, please read the
voluminous debates that have taken place about it. Apparently you think
it's something we have never considered, which in light of the product
we maintain would be more than remarkable.

Having done that, please endeavour to make an actual contribution to the
discussion.

cheers

andrew

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On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
>
> Before you come trolling on this (or any other) subject, please read the
> voluminous debates that have taken place about it. Apparently you think it's
> something we have never considered, which in light of the product we
> maintain would be more than remarkable.
>
> Having done that, please endeavour to make an actual contribution to the
> discussion.
>

Hi Andrew,

Let's be fair. It would be an almost impossible task to make any
sense of the archives on this topic without dedicating tens of hours
to the task, and having access to a better way of reading the archives
than is offered at archives.postgresql.org.

Raphaël, there have indeed been vast debates about this. My version
of the "executive summary" would be that some people want a tracker,
some people think email is good enough, and the people who do want a
tracker have different opinions about which tracker would be best for
the project. There's a wiki page about the (daunting) set of features
which would be required in a tracker to make everybody happy[1].

We are currently experimenting with using a wiki page to organise our
queue of patches[2], and there has been some effort to set up a test
bugzilla installation[3] but as yet there has been no viable consensus
as to adopting a particular tracker.

Cheers,
BJ

[1] http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/TrackerDiscussion
[2] http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/CommitFest:May
[3] http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Tracker:BugzillaTest

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Brendan Jurd wrote:

>> Having done that, please endeavour to make an actual contribution to the
>> discussion.
>>
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Let's be fair. It would be an almost impossible task to make any
> sense of the archives on this topic without dedicating tens of hours
> to the task, and having access to a better way of reading the archives
> than is offered at archives.postgresql.org.

+1

The idea that anyone would waste their time (and yes it is a complete
waste of time) reviewing the "archives" which are almost impossible to
search unless you know "exactly" what you are looking for is ridiculous.
Andrew, I am frankly surprised that you would have that response for the
individual.

How do you know he was trolling? Perhaps he is just surprised (which is
the impression that I got) that considering we are such a mature project
that we don't have a bugzilla or other such beast.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Brendan Jurd wrote:
>
>>> Having done that, please endeavour to make an actual contribution
>>> to the
>>> discussion.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> Let's be fair. It would be an almost impossible task to make any
>> sense of the archives on this topic without dedicating tens of hours
>> to the task, and having access to a better way of reading the archives
>> than is offered at archives.postgresql.org.
>
> +1
>
> The idea that anyone would waste their time (and yes it is a complete
> waste of time) reviewing the "archives" which are almost impossible to
> search unless you know "exactly" what you are looking for is ridiculous.
> Andrew, I am frankly surprised that you would have that response for
> the individual.


I entered "bugzilla" on the archives search page and got this link,
right out of the recent discussion, at the top of the list:

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql...4/msg00764.php

That and a few similar results might have given the OP some hints about
what people are thinking and why.

So your suggestion that the search engine is useless is just plain wrong
in this case.
>
> How do you know he was trolling? Perhaps he is just surprised (which
> is the impression that I got) that considering we are such a mature
> project that we don't have a bugzilla or other such beast.
>
>

Well, his post added precisely nothing to the debate. Personally, when I
find something surprising my first reaction is to go looking for a
reason, and only to ask about it if I can't find answers. As I have
demonstrated, finding clues would have been absurdly simple, despite
your assertion to the contrary. I just don't see any point at all in
posting a link to some random blog where mostly anonymous posters
comment on our lack of a bug tracker. A reasoned contribution to the
debate on the other hand will be welcome.

Perhaps it wasn't a troll. If it wasn't I apologise. My other points
remain, however.

(BTW, I have long been on the record as being in favor of using a
tracker for both bugs and features, and I did work some years ago on
making mainline Bugzilla fully support Postgres.)


cheers

andrew

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Andrew Dunstan wrote:
>
> I entered "bugzilla" on the archives search page and got this link,
> right out of the recent discussion, at the top of the list:
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql...4/msg00764.php
>
> That and a few similar results might have given the OP some hints about
> what people are thinking and why.
>

How would he know to search at the archives?

* There is no archives signature at the bottom of -hackers lists

* The mail-pref link when followed doesn't provide a link to the archives

* The website? Hmm I guess I click support and then a link called
mailing lists, oh and then there is a link somewhere down the middle of
the page that says, "archives".

Lastly, why would I search the archives?

There is this vast assumption that anyone (I do this too) will just
"know" to do something in this community. I think that assumption is far
off base.

IMO, a more appropriate response would have been something like:

Thanks for the discussion, this is something our community is currently
considering. You can view these two links if you are interested.

<link>
<link>

All we did with our response is say...

Hey, you are a troll, go away. When in fact he likely wasn't.

> Well, his post added precisely nothing to the debate. Personally, when I
> find something surprising my first reaction is to go looking for a
> reason, and only to ask about it if I can't find answers. As I have

As my wife often tells me, "you are not like everyone else".

The first natural response from most people that I encounter, is to ask
not to research.

> demonstrated, finding clues would have been absurdly simple, despite
> your assertion to the contrary. I just don't see any point at all in
> posting a link to some random blog where mostly anonymous posters
> comment on our lack of a bug tracker.

Well I won't disagree that the post was offtopic for the list.


> (BTW, I have long been on the record as being in favor of using a
> tracker for both bugs and features, and I did work some years ago on
> making mainline Bugzilla fully support Postgres.)

Right, which is also why I was surprised by your reply.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


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"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
> How would he know to search at the archives?

If he knew enough about the community to post in -hackers (as opposed
to, say, -general or -novice) he should certainly have heard of the
mailing list archives. *You* might find 'em useless but I don't.

regards, tom lane

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Tom Lane wrote:
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
>> How would he know to search at the archives?
>
> If he knew enough about the community to post in -hackers (as opposed
> to, say, -general or -novice) he should certainly have heard of the

You think so? (not being sarcastic).

> mailing list archives. *You* might find 'em useless but I don't.

I didn't say I found them useless. I said they are useless unless you
know what you are looking for. I am pretty sure that when it comes to
PostgreSQL, you always know what you are looking for.

Anyway, now I am off-topic, so I am done with this thread.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



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On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 08:54:46AM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
> How would he know to search at the archives?
>
> * There is no archives signature at the bottom of -hackers lists

Maybe because there's a perfectly functional archive link in the mail
headers? And because there's an RFC that tells us how such headers
are supposed to work?

A

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Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 08:54:46AM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> How would he know to search at the archives?
>>
>> * There is no archives signature at the bottom of -hackers lists
>
> Maybe because there's a perfectly functional archive link in the mail
> headers? And because there's an RFC that tells us how such headers
> are supposed to work?
>
> A
>

Oh so there is.

As a lot of people use gui apps, (I do seem to recall that mail cli
shows the full headers) most would never see the detailed headers of an
email. I know I very rarely look at the full source of an email.



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