SEO

Below is a link to the HTML JavaScript configuration page I am creating:



http://www.webservices.uiuc.edu/postgresql/



I had many suggestions. Based on the feedback I received, I put
together the initial list of questions. This list of questions can be
change.



Memory

There are many different ways to ask about memory. Rather than ask a
series of questions I went with a single question, #2. If it is better
to ask about the memory in a series of questions then please give me the
questions you would ask and why you would ask each of them. From my
understanding the primary memory issue as it relates to PostgreSQL is
"how much memory is available to PostgreSQL". Remember that this needs
to be as simple as possible.



My next step is to list the PostgreSQL parameters found in the
postgresql.conf file and how I will generate their values based on the
questions I have so far. I will primarily focus on PostgreSQL 8.2.x.
Once I have a consensus from everyone then I will put functionality
behind the "Generate Suggested Settings" button.



Thanks for all of the feedback,





Lance Campbell

Project Manager/Software Architect

Web Services at Public Affairs

University of Illinois

217.333.0382

http://webservices.uiuc.edu

On 6/19/07, Campbell, Lance <lance@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Below is a link to the HTML JavaScript configuration page I am creating:
>
>
>
> http://www.webservices.uiuc.edu/postgresql/
>
>
>
> I had many suggestions. Based on the feedback I received, I put together
> the initial list of questions. This list of questions can be change.
>
>
>
> Memory
>
> There are many different ways to ask about memory. Rather than ask a
> series of questions I went with a single question, #2. If it is better to
> ask about the memory in a series of questions then please give me the
> questions you would ask and why you would ask each of them. From my
> understanding the primary memory issue as it relates to PostgreSQL is "how
> much memory is available to PostgreSQL". Remember that this needs to be as
> simple as possible.
>
>
>
> My next step is to list the PostgreSQL parameters found in the
> postgresql.conf file and how I will generate their values based on the
> questions I have so far. I will primarily focus on PostgreSQL 8.2.x.
> Once I have a consensus from everyone then I will put functionality behind
> the "Generate Suggested Settings" button.
>
>
>
> Thanks for all of the feedback,
>
>
>
>
>
> Lance Campbell
>
> Project Manager/Software Architect
>
> Web Services at Public Affairs
>
> University of Illinois
>
> 217.333.0382
>
> http://webservices.uiuc.edu
>
>
>
Lance,

Simply awesome!


--
Yudhvir Singh Sidhu
408 375 3134 cell

Campbell, Lance writes:

For the "6) Are your searches:"
How about having "many simple"


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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Campbell, Lance wrote:

> Memory
>
> There are many different ways to ask about memory. Rather than ask a
> series of questions I went with a single question, #2. If it is better
> to ask about the memory in a series of questions then please give me the
> questions you would ask and why you would ask each of them. From my
> understanding the primary memory issue as it relates to PostgreSQL is
> "how much memory is available to PostgreSQL". Remember that this needs
> to be as simple as possible.

there are three catagories of memory useage

1. needed by other software
2. available for postgres
3. needed by the OS

it's not clear if what you are asking is #2 or a combination of #2 and #3

IMHO you should ask for #2 and #3, possibly along the lines of "how much
memory is in the machine that isn't already used by other applications"

David Lang

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> there are three catagories of memory useage
>
> 1. needed by other software
> 2. available for postgres
> 3. needed by the OS

There's actually only two required memory questions:

M1) How much RAM do you have on this machine?
M2) Is this:
() Dedicated PostgreSQL Server?
() Server shared with a few other applications?
() Desktop?

I don't think the "mostly reads / mostly writes" question covers anything,
nor is it likely to produce accurate answers. Instead, we need to ask the
users to characterize what type of application they are running:

T1) Please characterize the general type of workload you will be running on
this database. Choose one of the following four:
() WEB: any scripting-language application which mainly needs to support
90% or more data reads, and many rapid-fire small queries over a large
number of connections. Examples: forums, content management systems,
directories.
() OLTP: this application involves a large number of INSERTs, UPDATEs and
DELETEs because most users are modifying data instead of just reading it.
Examples: accounting, ERP, logging tools, messaging engines.
() Data Warehousing: also called "decision support" and "BI", these
database support a fairly small number of large, complicated reporting
queries, very large tables, and large batch data loads.
() Mixed/Other: if your application doesn't fit any of the above, our
script will try to pick "safe, middle-of-the-road" values.

Hmmm, drop question (6) too.

(2) should read: "What is the maximum number of database connections which
you'll need to support? If you don't know, we'll pick a default."

Other questions we need:

How many/how fast processors do you have? Pick the option which seems
closest to what you have:
() A single laptop processor
() Single or dual older processors (1ghz)
() Dual or quad current consumer processors (2ghz+)
() Large, recent multi-core server system

"What OS Are You Using", of course, needs to have Linux, Solaris, BSD, OSX
and Windows. At some point, this tool will also need to generate for the
user any shmem settings that they need to make on the OS.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Josh Berkus wrote:

> "What OS Are You Using", of course, needs to have Linux, Solaris, BSD, OSX
> and Windows. At some point, this tool will also need to generate for the
> user any shmem settings that they need to make on the OS.

I also noticed that on FreeBSD (6.2) at least the stock config simply
won't run without building a new kernel that bumps up all the SHM stuff or
dropping down resource usage in the postgres config...

Overall, I like the idea. I've been slowly working on weaning myself off
of mysql and I think removing any roadblocks that new users might stumble
upon seems like an excellent way to get more exposure.

Charles

> --
> --Josh
>
> Josh Berkus
> PostgreSQL @ Sun
> San Francisco
>
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>

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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Josh Berkus wrote:

> I don't think the "mostly reads / mostly writes" question covers anything,
> nor is it likely to produce accurate answers. Instead, we need to ask the
> users to characterize what type of application they are running:
> T1) Please characterize the general type of workload you will be running on
> this database. Choose one of the following four...

We've hashed through this area before, but for Lance's benefit I'll
reiterate my dissenting position on this subject. If you're building a
"tool for dummies", my opinion is that you shouldn't ask any of this
information. I think there's an enormous benefit to providing something
that takes basic sizing information and gives conservative guidelines
based on that--as you say, "safe, middle-of-the-road values"--that are
still way, way more useful than the default values. The risk in trying to
make a complicated tool that satisfies all the users Josh is aiming his
more sophisticated effort at is that you'll lose the newbies.

Scan the archives of this mailing list for a bit. If you look at what
people discover they've being nailed by, it's rarely because they need to
optimize something like random_page_cost. It's usually because they have
a brutally wrong value for one of the memory or vacuum parameters that are
very easy to provide reasonable suggestions for without needing a lot of
information about the server.

I wouldn't even bother asking how many CPUs somebody has for what Lance is
building. The kind of optimizations you'd do based on that are just too
complicated to expect a tool to get them right and still be accessible to
a novice.

--
* Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD

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Greg Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Josh Berkus wrote:
>
>> I don't think the "mostly reads / mostly writes" question covers
>> anything,
>> nor is it likely to produce accurate answers. Instead, we need to
>> ask the
>> users to characterize what type of application they are running:
>> T1) Please characterize the general type of workload you will be
>> running on
>> this database. Choose one of the following four...
>
> We've hashed through this area before, but for Lance's benefit I'll
> reiterate my dissenting position on this subject. If you're building
> a "tool for dummies", my opinion is that you shouldn't ask any of this
> information. I think there's an enormous benefit to providing
> something that takes basic sizing information and gives conservative
> guidelines based on that--as you say, "safe, middle-of-the-road
> values"--that are still way, way more useful than the default values.
> The risk in trying to make a complicated tool that satisfies all the
> users Josh is aiming his more sophisticated effort at is that you'll
> lose the newbies.
Generally I agree, however, how about a first switch, for beginner /
intermediate / advanced.

The choice you make determines how much detail we ask you about your
setup. Beginners get two or three simple questions, intermediate a
handful, and advanced gets grilled on everything. Then, just write the
beginner and maybe intermediate to begin with and ghost out the advanced
until it's ready.

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On Thu, 21 Jun 2007, Scott Marlowe wrote:

> Generally I agree, however, how about a first switch, for beginner /
> intermediate / advanced.

You're describing a perfectly reasonable approach for a second generation
tool in this area. I think it would be very helpful for the user
community to get a first generation one that works fairly well before
getting distracted at all by things like this. The people capable of
filling out the intermediate/advanced settings can probably just do a bit
of reading and figure out most of what they should be doing themselves.

--
* Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD

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On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 02:32 -0400, Greg Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007, Scott Marlowe wrote:
>
> > Generally I agree, however, how about a first switch, for beginner /
> > intermediate / advanced.
>
> You're describing a perfectly reasonable approach for a second generation
> tool in this area. I think it would be very helpful for the user
> community to get a first generation one that works fairly well before
> getting distracted at all by things like this. The people capable of
> filling out the intermediate/advanced settings can probably just do a bit
> of reading and figure out most of what they should be doing themselves.

Just as an aside; how come the installation/setup "Tutorial" section -
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/i...ial-start.html -
doesn't mention setting some rough reasonable defaults in
postgresql.conf or even a reference to the parameter documentation
section. It seems like such a reference should exist between -
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/i...rial-arch.html - and
- http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/i...-accessdb.html

At least something along those lines should be said at
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/i...tall-post.html

Personally, as DBA for more than a decade, I've got 0 sympathy for
people who setup a database but can't be bothered to read the
documentation. But in the case of PostgreSQL the documentation could do
a better job of driving users to even the existence [and importance of]
postgresql.conf and routine maintenance techniques.
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/i...me-config.html
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.2/i...intenance.html

Seems to me that even a remake of something like -
http://www.iiug.org/~waiug/old/forum...ing/sld001.htm - focused
on PostgreSQL would be novel and very interesting.

Just my two cents.

PostgreSQL is awesome, BTW.




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