> + On 10-Jul-04 22:52:43
+Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> wrote

>Glenn <glenn@IREPORTEVERYSPAMMER.canit.se> writes:

>>I partly agree with you, however I think linux is 100% wrong way
>>for sun to go.. I think Solaris is Suns strongest card right now,
>>ESPECIALLY since it's the last real UNIX that is being actively
>>developed.

>Thanks; I think that both Linux and Solaris have their place in this
>world; Sun's management is realizing more than ever how important
>Solaris is for Sun "we're a Workstation, err, Server, err, perhaps
>Solaris is an important part of our portfolio too".

Well, if thats true for sun as a whole comany it's nice.

[ Cut ]

>Solaris 10 has more new stuff and, more importantly, more
>really innovative, exciting, new stuff than any Solaris release
>before or even all of them combined, at least, that is how it

But, many people would complain that its just stuff "stolen"
from other operatingsystems, like BSD,Linux and *shrug* windows..
Personally I dont see any problem with using good ideas even if
someone else used the idea first.. ..only if it *IS* a good idea
however.. Registry is NOT a good idea.

>feels like. And we're much more serious about Solaris/x86 than ever
>before; look at the Opteron hardware Sun is rolling out.

Well, Opteron != x86 afaik, and solaris x86 isnt interesting for
me personally, *however* I dont see a problem with it being developed
as long as there are customers that use it.. (and pay for it ofcoz)

>>Well, Suns x86 machines are IMHO totally crap, I have NO idea why they
>>sell them and I only know ONE company that bought that crap, and their
>>reason is that they only want to have supportpeople from one company
>>running around.. (They also have a VERY large system consisting of
>>big sunmachines running databases and extremly much datastorage.)

>Which ones in particular do you find crap, and if so why?

The ones I get in a brown box saying "Made in taiwan" (or similar)
with no sunlogo, and then a little sunbox with a sunfire-like front
to snap onto it.. ..You know the ones I can buy from the
computerdealer "at the corner" for less money in a identical box
but without the box with the sun-front.

>And, relative to Sun/SPARC gear or relative to other PCs?

Well, Sun/SPARC mainly.

>I've never been too impressed when opening PC boxes and many but
>not all of our SPARC boxes look very well done from the inside.

You mean like the Netra X1/SFV100 ? ..However, I have had some
sun x86 servers for testing (togethler with identical machines
from other companys, just without the front) and they got the
same low rating as the other x86 machines for several reason..
for example the old classic "no real serial console" problem.

[ cut ]

>>..Just to find that that particular CPU isn't made anymore, and if you
>>buy another one the stepping is wrong so you have to replace both, and when
>>you do you realise that the BIOS software didnt support that CPU.. and
>>when you upgrade that you get strange problems with lockups since your
>>combination of cards isnt tested, and that fix in the new firmware at
>>the same time broke a interupthandler that makes the machine unusable..

>>Come on.. replacing parts is one of the nightmares when running x86
>>on production systems.

>That's why you just replace the whole system and hopes it isn't one
>of the systems that just happens to run poorly under Linux or Solaris.

Yes, basically you have to do that to awoid problems, too bad if it leads
to other problems, like that new inbuilt networkingcard is so new that
it isnt supported by the free OS'es yet..


>>Supporting the existing linux developers with developer information and
>>maybe hardware is the way, and then concentrate on Solaris instead..

>We're not planning to abandone Solaris anytime soon; we believe
>strongly in it, but then, I am first and foremost a Solaris engineer.

Well, AFAIK SGI said the same about IRIX and then the development fell
back to more or less patching it only, and remove the free security
upgrades from the web (sort of..) (I like IRIX as well as solaris,
I just dont expect that SGI is ever going to get the IRIX/MIPS ship
floating 100% again.)

I'm a sceptical person by nature, but i hope that you are right

Glenn <glenn@IREPORTEVERYSPAMMER.canit.se> writes:

>>Solaris 10 has more new stuff and, more importantly, more
>>really innovative, exciting, new stuff than any Solaris release
>>before or even all of them combined, at least, that is how it

>But, many people would complain that its just stuff "stolen"
>from other operatingsystems, like BSD,Linux and *shrug* windows..
>Personally I dont see any problem with using good ideas even if
>someone else used the idea first.. ..only if it *IS* a good idea
>however.. Registry is NOT a good idea.

I'm talking about innovation, not copying. Of course Solaris
is catching up in some areas, but I'm not sure if picking up
open source or open source features amounts to "theft"; the most
exciting of the new stuff in Solaris 10 is new by any measure.

>>feels like. And we're much more serious about Solaris/x86 than ever
>>before; look at the Opteron hardware Sun is rolling out.

>Well, Opteron != x86 afaik, and solaris x86 isnt interesting for
>me personally, *however* I dont see a problem with it being developed
>as long as there are customers that use it.. (and pay for it ofcoz)

The Opteron effort isn't the only one; Solaris/x86 used to
barely support new feature, just so it would run on newer hardware.
All optimization work went into the "generic" or SPARC specific
side of the equation; SSE/SSE2/Hyperthreading and accompanying compiler
work are but a few of the things that benefit the non-Opteron side.

More work is done on X and USB, primarily benefiting the x86 side
of the house. We are much more serious about feature parity than
ever before.

>The ones I get in a brown box saying "Made in taiwan" (or similar)
>with no sunlogo, and then a little sunbox with a sunfire-like front
>to snap onto it.. ..You know the ones I can buy from the
>computerdealer "at the corner" for less money in a identical box
>but without the box with the sun-front.

Ah, right.

>You mean like the Netra X1/SFV100 ? ..However, I have had some
>sun x86 servers for testing (togethler with identical machines
>from other companys, just without the front) and they got the
>same low rating as the other x86 machines for several reason..
>for example the old classic "no real serial console" problem.

Indeed, the lack of serial console in servers is bad; the LX50 had
one (I use one with a serial console, but it is cumbersome at best).

A tyan 2x2.2 GHz Opteron system I just got pleasantly surprised me
with a serial console.

But I don't think you want to know how x86 serial consoles work:
faking the keyboard is easy enough but apparently they scan the
screen memory to find screen updates to output over the console.
(Cough!)

The x86 archtecture really needs a better firmware; too bad that
they are just too damn stubborn to use Open Boot.


>Well, AFAIK SGI said the same about IRIX and then the development fell
>back to more or less patching it only, and remove the free security
>upgrades from the web (sort of..) (I like IRIX as well as solaris,
>I just dont expect that SGI is ever going to get the IRIX/MIPS ship
>floating 100% again.)

>I'm a sceptical person by nature, but i hope that you are right

Well, in Solaris software we hope that one of us becoming CEO
is a sign of good things to come :-)

Casper

--
Expressed in this posting are my opinions. They are in no way related
to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.
Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and may
be fiction rather than truth.

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Casper H.S. Dik wrote:

> More work is done on X and USB, primarily benefiting the x86 side
> of the house. We are much more serious about feature parity than
> ever before.

This is just idle thinking out loud, but I wonder how much the
public backlash against Solaris x86's postponment a year or 2
ago had to do with Sun's change of heart vis a vis x86? In other
words, if S9 for x86 had shipped at FCS, would we now be seeing
the renewed commitment from Sun for x86, or would x86 still be
limping along as an also-ran?

> But I don't think you want to know how x86 serial consoles work:
> faking the keyboard is easy enough but apparently they scan the
> screen memory to find screen updates to output over the console.
> (Cough!)
>
> The x86 archtecture really needs a better firmware; too bad that
> they are just too damn stubborn to use Open Boot.

I hope that any Sun-designed x86 server (and desktops too!) uses
OBP rather than that primitive BIOS crap.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Glenn <glenn@IREPORTEVERYSPAMMER.canit.se> writes in comp.sys.sun.admin:
|> + On 10-Jul-04 22:52:43
| +Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> wrote
|>Solaris 10 has more new stuff and, more importantly, more
|>really innovative, exciting, new stuff than any Solaris release
|>before or even all of them combined, at least, that is how it
|
|But, many people would complain that its just stuff "stolen"
|from other operatingsystems, like BSD,Linux and *shrug* windows..

Only if they don't understand what things like DTrace truly are.
There's nothing quite like it on any of those OS'es. (And ideas
have always flowed back and forth - how many have BSD & Linux "stolen"
from SunOS and Solaris over the years?)

|Personally I dont see any problem with using good ideas even if
|someone else used the idea first.. ..only if it *IS* a good idea
|however.. Registry is NOT a good idea.

Good thing "Registry" is NOT one of the new Solaris 10 features then.

--
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Alan Coopersmith * alanc@alum.calberkeley.org * Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~alanc/ * http://blogs.sun.com/alanc/
Working for, but definitely not speaking for, Sun Microsystems, Inc.

On 9 Jul 2004 08:11:53 -0700 rhugga@yahoo.com (Keg) wrote:
> For starters I have been a Sun guy as far back as the old 100-lb Sparc
> IPX systems and I still believe they make the best hardware on the
> planet.

That's more of a romantic idea than anything else. "Best" usually
does not equal most cost effective, and that's what we're talking about
here, right?

....
> The Linux Issue:
>
> I think Sun is dropping the ball badly. The only thing holding Linux
> back as a larger player in the data center is the lack of enterprise
> quality x86 hardware and the scheduling issues with the pre-2.6 linux
> kernels. Both of those issues are quickly changing and Linux, in my
> opiniion, is gonna be a larger player in the data center over the next
> 5 years. (our data center is already 50% Linux, excluding the 2
> 250-node linux clusters we have)

Larger yes (of course!) but dominant, which is what you imply, I doubt it.
This is for many many reasons that I don't really feel like going into,
it will just start a flame war.

> As an IT Director, I have no choice but to start moving towards Linux.
> Why?
> 1) Support is orders of magnitude cheaper.
> 2) Replacement parts are usually a 10 minute drive away.
> 3) Replacement parts are cheap enough to keep on hand. (hell keep
> entire spare systems on standby)
> 4) You don't need another 100k of Veritas software & support.
> 5) x86 based hardware is much easier and faster to troubleshoot and
> repair. (and thus employed skillsets are cheaper and easier to find)

Wrong on all counts, IMHO.

First of all, you are confusing the need to move the x86 (for its far
superior price/performance) with the need to move to Linux. Those are
two separate things. But that's not to say you're wrong--you do have
to move towards Linux but not because of any of the issues you mention
(which are all hardware, not software, concerns), but because Solaris
x86 hardware support is terrible.

When Sun starts supporting stuff they don't sell we'll start getting
there.

Your #4 reason is utterly bogus. If you need Veritas, you need Veritas
whether on Solaris or Linux. You cannot possibly be moving from a
Solaris system that uses Veritas to a Linux one without--there's simply
no comparison. It's quite likely you're running Veritas for no good
reason.

> I justed replaced some very heavily hit E450 NFS servers with dual 1.7
> Ghz Xeon systems, 2GB RAM, and Adaptec SCSI cards for local system
> disk mirroring.

Just? You should have migrated awhile ago. If you only need 2GB RAM
and 2 Xeon CPUs, unless you're running an application that "must" run
on Solaris/SPARC. In which case you couldn't have replaced them ...

> I had budgeted for 3 4800's for Oracle database repacements for next
> year, I am now testing viable Linux alternatives and so far it looks
> promising. (and this is based on the 2.4 kernel with the poor
> scheduler)

Good luck, but you're wasting your time. Oracle on Linux is crap, and
any good auditor won't allow it to pass Sarbanes-Oxley requirements
(security is terrible on the supported Linux config and for Oracle
support you are not allowed to even apply security updates).

/fc

On 10 Jul 2004 22:58:38 +0100 Glenn <glenn@IREPORTEVERYSPAMMER.canit.se> wrote:
> Come on.. replacing parts is one of the nightmares when running x86
> on production systems.

But it doesn't matter; you can keep entire spare systems handy and
still come in under the cost of Sun hardware. After 3 years
(depreciation cycle, not to mention raw performance) all hardware is
junk so the added reliability doesn't really mean a lot.

/fc

Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> writes:

>This is just idle thinking out loud, but I wonder how much the
>public backlash against Solaris x86's postponment a year or 2
>ago had to do with Sun's change of heart vis a vis x86? In other
>words, if S9 for x86 had shipped at FCS, would we now be seeing
>the renewed commitment from Sun for x86, or would x86 still be
>limping along as an also-ran?

I think so, yes; (I don't think any amount of work on Solaris/x86
will placate sceptics, certainly not in the short/medium term,
until well after S10 is out)

>I hope that any Sun-designed x86 server (and desktops too!) uses
>OBP rather than that primitive BIOS crap.

Not as long as they are also Windows certified :-(

Casper
--
Expressed in this posting are my opinions. They are in no way related
to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.
Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and may
be fiction rather than truth.

Alan Coopersmith <alanc@alum.calberkeley.org> wrote in message news:<cct42l$jaq$1@agate.berkeley.edu>...
> Glenn <glenn@IREPORTEVERYSPAMMER.canit.se> writes in comp.sys.sun.admin:
> |> + On 10-Jul-04 22:52:43
> +Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> wrote
> |>Solaris 10 has more new stuff and, more importantly, more
> |>really innovative, exciting, new stuff than any Solaris release
> |>before or even all of them combined, at least, that is how it
> |
> |But, many people would complain that its just stuff "stolen"
> |from other operatingsystems, like BSD,Linux and *shrug* windows..
>
> Only if they don't understand what things like DTrace truly are.
> There's nothing quite like it on any of those OS'es. (And ideas
> have always flowed back and forth - how many have BSD & Linux "stolen"
> from SunOS and Solaris over the years?)
>
> |Personally I dont see any problem with using good ideas even if
> |someone else used the idea first.. ..only if it *IS* a good idea
> |however.. Registry is NOT a good idea.
>
> Good thing "Registry" is NOT one of the new Solaris 10 features then.


Thx Mike, I actually confused the IPX with a pizza box system I lugged
around campus for a couple years back when. I remember now the IPX's
were the half-height shoe-box systems we used in the EE labs. Of
course, I was assuming that when I said 100lbs that most people would
recognize that as being a joke, but you never know... I don't think a
280R even weighs 100 lbs since I pick them up by myself all the time.

Peace and thx,

rhugga@yahoo.com (Keg) writes:

> I don't think a
> 280R even weighs 100 lbs since I pick them up by myself all the time.
>

According to
http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub...280R/spec.html

280R weight 75lb and its shipping weight is 85lb.

If you want something more, try picking a E450 with its 205lb or a SF E25K
with its 2513lb (shipping weight 2958lb).

Is there any heavier machine made by Sun? I would expect older machines to
be heavier, but SF 25K is heavier than E10K with its mere 2200lb shipping
weight...


Dragan


> Peace and thx,

Ditto.

--
Dragan Cvetkovic,

To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer

!!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:01:34 -0700
Frank Cusack <fcusack@fcusack.com> wrote:

> When Sun starts supporting stuff they don't sell we'll start getting
> there.

They already do. I'm running Solaris 9 on an x86 machine that
does not contain a singe Sun part.

--
Stefaan
--
"What is stated clearly conceives easily." -- Inspired sales droid