Hi everyone,

Just a note that if you are upgrading to Solaris 10, and you want full access
to all recommended and security patches for the new OS, you have to buy a
'service plan' from Sun if you don't have any other existing maintenance or
service contract. There is an announcment about the change linked from the main
SunSolve page at "http://sunsolve.sun.com". Sun's also changed the terminology
to sound like like Microsoft (!), so patches are now 'software updates'. 8-)

I just had a look now and the cheapest service plan is US$120 a year and they
are basing the pricing on the number of processors you use (which are called
'sockets'), so for a typical dual-CPU system like an Ultra 60, the minimium
service plan price is US$240 for one year or just over US$600 for an extended
3-year plan! Ouch.

If you don't have a service plan the only patches you can download for free are
security and hardware driver updates! That probably won't bother grass-roots
users (students, non-profit businesses, educators, etc.) but it will affect
small buiness significantly.

The new policy is more restrictive than the previous policy under which Sun
made recommended and security patch kits available for free to everyone. Do you
think this will turn a LOT of end-users away from Solaris (and Sun's hardware
in general)? I tend think that it will - especially small businesses, etc.
It'll put Solaris only in the market for medium to large enterprises and other
segments are likely to skip Solaris in favour of an open-source Linux of *BSD
OS. Particularly since Sun is now favouring Opteron-based hardware designs and
effectively building 'Sun-badged PC-type' workstations and lower-end servers.

Regards,

Craig.

--
SUN RIPENED KERNELS - Surplus Sun Microsystems Equipment, Parts + Accessories
Waterfall, NSW, Australia - Operated by Craig Dewick - Founded in 1996
Main site: www.sunrk.com.au - Ebay Shop: www.ebayshops.com.au/sunripenedkernels
Ph: +612-9520-2547 - Fax: +612-9520-2557 - Mobile: 04-2163-0547 (int. +614)

Kralizec Craig wrote:

> The new policy is more restrictive than the previous policy under which
> Sun made recommended and security patch kits available for free to
> everyone. Do you think this will turn a LOT of end-users away from
> Solaris (and Sun's hardware in general)? I tend think that it will -
> especially small businesses, etc. It'll put Solaris only in the market
> for medium to large enterprises and other segments are likely to skip
> Solaris in favour of an open-source Linux of *BSD OS. Particularly since
> Sun is now favouring Opteron-based hardware designs and effectively
> building 'Sun-badged PC-type' workstations and lower-end servers.

I agree. Most companies who run Solaris, would buy support anyways...I
think sun should allow another category for hobbyists.

--
int main(){int O=0,s[]={0x84,0xe4,0xea,0xdc,0xde,0100,0xa6,'\\'\
,0100,0x88,0xca,0xd8,0xc4,0xde,0xdc,0xde,0100,0xf8 ,0100,0170,0x\
c4,0xe4,0xea,0xdc,0xde,'\\',0xe6,'\\',0xc8,0xca,0x d8,0xc4,0xde,\
0xdc,0xde,0x80,0xda,0xc2,0xd2,0xd8,'\\',0xc2,0xc6, 0174,0100,0xf\
8,0100,0xd0,0xe8,0xe8,0xe0,0164,0136,0136,0xee,0xe e,0xee,'\\',0\
xda,0xc2,0xd2,0xd8,'\\',0xc2,0xc6,0x0};while(O<66) {(s[O]==0)?pr\
intf("%c\n",(47<<2)>>2)rintf("%c",s[O]>>1);++O;}return s[--O]\
;}

Bruno Delbono wrote:
> Kralizec Craig wrote:
>
>> The new policy is more restrictive than the previous policy under
>> which Sun made recommended and security patch kits available for free
>> to everyone. Do you think this will turn a LOT of end-users away from
>> Solaris (and Sun's hardware in general)?

I'm not so sure it will. Some maybe, but not a LOT as you put it.

>> I tend think that it will -
>> especially small businesses, etc.

Solaris is one of the least expensive OS to run now. Windoze is
expensive. The bigger linux distros are not free any more (probably
similar to Solaris + basic support contract). The other UNIX verisons I
can think of (AIX, IRIX, HP-UX) are all expensive. Tru64 was cheap for
home use. That is dying anyway.

*BSD is another matter I would accept. When I installed that in the dim
and distant past it was clear nothing was enabled for security reasons.
You would soon spend the equivalent cost of a low-end support contract
in configuring a usable system for desktop use.

>> It'll put Solaris only in the market
>> for medium to large enterprises and other segments are likely to skip
>> Solaris in favour of an open-source Linux of *BSD OS.

I only use mine at home and I don't think the patch situation will make
me stop using it. In fact I upgraded (well fresh install actually) to
Solaris 10 within the last few days. I was aware of the patch situation.

> I agree. Most companies who run Solaris, would buy support anyways...I
> think sun should allow another category for hobbyists.
>

Whilst I would not complain about free patches, it must be said Sun do
give use quite a bit away - more than any other company I can think of.
They have got to make some money.

Sun Studio 11 is free, which is a real bonus.

Given a choice, (free Sun Studio 11 or free patches) I know what I would
take. How about you?

If you conclude the free compiler is the better than the free patches
and you used Solaris before, I think you will have to agree it is even
better value now. (At least on SPARC. For x86 there is obviously gcc
which works better on x86 than it does on SPARC)

The real killer cost with Solaris for me would have been drivers for my
GPIB board. They are free for Linux, but about £400 for Solaris. That
was a third party (National Instruments) not Sun though.

Lots of 3rd party commercial software is more expensive on Solaris than
Linux, but you can't blame Sun.


PS, why are people now copying posts to the UK and Australian Sun
newsgroups? I would expect people in those countries (like myself in the
UK) would look at comp.sys.sun.admin and comp.unix.solaris. The national
ones should really be for items specific to those countries.
--
Dave K

http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)

Dave wrote:
> Given a choice, (free Sun Studio 11 or free patches) I know what I would
> take. How about you?

For home use, I would take free patches. gcc is perfectly adequate for
many uses.

If you *need* compiler better than gcc, then Sun Studio 11 being free is
definitely a better deal than patches being free, though...

- Logan

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
>> Given a choice, (free Sun Studio 11 or free patches) I know what I
>> would take. How about you?
>
>
> For home use, I would take free patches. gcc is perfectly adequate for
> many uses.
>
For home use, Studio 11 (which offers way more than just a compiler) and
run Solaris Express.

Ian

Kralizec Craig wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Just a note that if you are upgrading to Solaris 10, and you want full
> access to all recommended and security patches for the new OS, you
> have to buy a 'service plan' from Sun if you don't have any other
> existing maintenance or service contract. There is an announcment
> about the change linked from the main SunSolve page at
> "http://sunsolve.sun.com". Sun's also changed the terminology to sound
> like like Microsoft (!), so patches are now 'software updates'. 8-)
>
> I just had a look now and the cheapest service plan is US$120 a year
> and they are basing the pricing on the number of processors you use
> (which are called 'sockets'), so for a typical dual-CPU system like an
> Ultra 60, the minimium service plan price is US$240 for one year or
> just over US$600 for an extended 3-year plan! Ouch.
>
> If you don't have a service plan the only patches you can download for
> free are security and hardware driver updates! That probably won't
> bother grass-roots users (students, non-profit businesses, educators,
> etc.) but it will affect small buiness significantly.
>
> The new policy is more restrictive than the previous policy under
> which Sun made recommended and security patch kits available for free
> to everyone. Do you think this will turn a LOT of end-users away from
> Solaris (and Sun's hardware in general)? I tend think that it will -
> especially small businesses, etc. It'll put Solaris only in the market
> for medium to large enterprises and other segments are likely to skip
> Solaris in favour of an open-source Linux of *BSD OS. Particularly
> since Sun is now favouring Opteron-based hardware designs and
> effectively building 'Sun-badged PC-type' workstations and lower-end
> servers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Craig.
>
Sun is in business to make money. You can download Solaris 10 for
free. Programmers have to be paid. Technical writers have to be
paid. The phone company charges something like $8000/month for a T3
line which they probably need for the Sunsolve web site and probably and
another for docs.sun.com. Where should they make the money to pay their
bills? If you think $120 per annum is expensive, maybe you should ask
HP what they charge for a service contract!!!!

"Kralizec Craig" <cd@lios.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.63.0512051438410.13567@lios.apana. org.au...

> The new policy is more restrictive than the previous policy under which
Sun
> made recommended and security patch kits available for free to everyone.
Do you
> think this will turn a LOT of end-users away from Solaris (and Sun's
hardware
> in general)? I tend think that it will - especially small businesses, etc.
> It'll put Solaris only in the market for medium to large enterprises and
other
> segments are likely to skip Solaris in favour of an open-source Linux of
*BSD
> OS. Particularly since Sun is now favouring Opteron-based hardware designs
and
> effectively building 'Sun-badged PC-type' workstations and lower-end
servers.

It's really quite simple. Either you run an "open source" OS on your
systems, or you run a "commercial" OS on your systems.

If you run an open source one, then you get to manage, patch, upgrade, etc.
as one would any other open source system. Which means relying on community
based toolsets and systems to aggregate and provide those kinds of services.

If you run a commercial system, then you get to rely on your vendor, most of
whom want to be paid for such services.

Solaris is in the state now. You can use OpenSolaris, you can download
Solaris Express, you can build based on source code snapshots, etc. No doubt
in time perhaps someone like Blastwave will have a patching service of their
own to make incremental upgrades, much like what Sun does now (in fact, even
using the same tools, but rather providing a different URL, who knows).

That's why Sun feels they can do what they're doing. You have all the
options available to any other OpenSolaris user, or in fact, any Linux or
BSD user. The downside is OpenSolaris is not yet as mature as BSD and Linux
in terms of community support and infrastructure, having been reliant on Sun
all this time. Well, that tap is turned off.

On the other hand, if you'd like to leverage Suns offereings, you need to
pay them. Their prices are pretty darn cheap. They MUCH cheaper than Red
Hat, which offers pretty much the same services, but you can't get an
"update only" offering like Suns. Red Hat basically dings you for a 4-CPU
machine whether your running 1, 2, or 4 CPUs. Suns will scale with the
socket. Run it on a Dual Core Opteron and pony up the $10/month and giggle
all the way to the bank.

If you find Suns prices too high, feel free to create "sunhat.com",
aggregate the patches, deploy the servers, pay for the bandwidth and power,
and offer it to the community.

I really don't understand what people were expecting here, or why they're
surprised, or, nay, even disappointed by this. What did you expect Sun to
do?

Regards,

Will Hartung
(redrocks@sbcglobal.net)

Ian wrote:
> Logan Shaw wrote:
>> Dave wrote:

>>> Given a choice, (free Sun Studio 11 or free patches) I know what I
>>> would take. How about you?

>> For home use, I would take free patches. gcc is perfectly adequate for
>> many uses.

> For home use, Studio 11 (which offers way more than just a compiler) and
> run Solaris Express.

Just because it's for home use doesn't mean it's not important. I have
financial information and other important records stored on the machine.
Also, the machine I use at home is hooked directly to the Internet, so
I don't want to have to wait potentially a month or more to get security
fixes. In fact, I'm not even sure that security fixes are a priority for
Solaris Express, since it's not meant to be used on a production system.

Even as a home user, it will still probably be worth it to me to get the
cheapest service plan. It would be nice if it were half price for home
users or something, though. $10/month for patches is a little steep,
in my opinion...

- Logan

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Will Hartung wrote:

> I really don't understand what people were expecting here, or why they're
> surprised, or, nay, even disappointed by this. What did you expect Sun to
> do?

+1

People also seem to be forgetting that the quarterly (or so) updates,
which include just about all patches, are also free.

So people like me (hobbysists), students, small businesses who can't/
don't want to afford a service contract can use the Update releases
of Solaris for $0. Solaris Express is also a $0 option, but given its
pre-release status, ought not to be deployed in production.

For commercial interests, for whom having timeley access to the latest
patches is an issue, support contracts are the way to go.

Yeah, it would be nice if Sun could give everything, including service
and all patches, away for free, but they have to make money somehow.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member

. * * . * .* .
. * . .*
President, * . . /\ ( . . *
Rite Online Inc. . . / .\ . * .
.*. / * \ . .
. /* o \ .
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638 * '''||''' .
URL: http://www.rite-online.net ******************

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Logan Shaw wrote:

> fixes. In fact, I'm not even sure that security fixes are a priority for
> Solaris Express, since it's not meant to be used on a production system.

You seem to be forgetting that patches usually appear in the "next" release
of Solaris (i.e., OpenSolaris and Solaris Express) before the current one.
Only after some suitable soak time in Solaris Express and OpenSOlaris is a
fix backported to Solaris 10 (and earlier if there's a sufficient business
case) as a patch (there are probably a small number of exceptions to this).

> Even as a home user, it will still probably be worth it to me to get the
> cheapest service plan. It would be nice if it were half price for home
> users or something, though. $10/month for patches is a little steep,
> in my opinion...

Nice idea, but I think your average home user/hobbyist will be more interested
in downloading the latest Solaris Express.

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member

. * * . * .* .
. * . .*
President, * . . /\ ( . . *
Rite Online Inc. . . / .\ . * .
.*. / * \ . .
. /* o \ .
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638 * '''||''' .
URL: http://www.rite-online.net ******************