First off - Fernando - great summary and some very
constructive points that IBM could use to craft 'the
next version' as you state. Not a complete FLAME out
response, very well articulated and logical.

Second - Jeansagi - I believe that IBM employees do
monitor this newsgroup so "yes - whether he meant to
or not - he did share his ideas with IBM"

Hopefully someone will pick up the ball and run with
it. If IBM ever get's to Fernando's Future State
model I'd be one happy old 4GL developer.

Rob Vorbroker


--- Jesus Antonio Santos Giraldo
<jeansagi@myrealbox.com> wrote:

>
> Well, Very inetresting what you say.
>
> Have you ever shared your ideas with IBM... maybe
> they are willing to
> listen proposal like yours.
>
> Chucho!
>
>
> Fernando Fernandez wrote:
> > Hi all!
> >
> > I've just been watching an EGL demo by Tom
> Chastain, from IBM Labs, in
> > an event called Infobahn, in Lisbon.
> >
> > I must confess I'm a bit disappointed.
> >
> > We've worked with 4GL since the 80's and we work
> with Java since late
> > 90's. We've been able to keep away from major
> detours called "4GL for
> > Windows", "New Era" (this one fooled us for some
> time), 4J's, Querix,
> > etc. We were expecting the "real thing"...
> >
> > And the real thing should have had, for starters:
> >
> > 1. Full (I mean *full*) 4GL compatibility
> (syntax, file format,
> > command line)
> > 2. Object-orientation
> > 3. Java integration (like with C in older
> versions)
> > 4. Windows & web browser execution
> >
> > Of course, it would be nice to have also:
> >
> > * an IDE (eclipse is a good choice)
> > * multiple simultaneous connections
> > * more instructions to send mail, read/write
> files, parse XML, etc.
> >
> > I sincerely don't understand why this has been so
> difficult. Let's see:
> >
> > 1. Rewriting the compiler it's not so difficult.
> Several companies
> > have done it, and there is even an open
> source project that has
> > done it too. Doing it in Java wouldn't be
> harder
> > 2. Object orientation has been already done in
> New Era , keeping
> > (incomplete) compatibility with the original
> 4GL.
> > 3. Java integration comes easy after the first
> two
> > 4. Running in Windows has already been done in
> "4GL for Windows" (are
> > the 'O' guys smarter?)
> >
> > Now we've been hearing the EGL spin for some time,
> about the "New
> > Informix 4GL", and we are very interested, of
> course. But unfortunately
> > the first demos of the product are here and EGL is
> not what we expected.
> > Let's see why:
> >
> > * 4GL is converted into a different, uglier,
> language, in witch SQL
> > is not part of the syntax, it is "escaped"
> like in ESQL-C or SQL/J
> > * Windows and Browser/applet direct usage is
> not possible (yet?),
> > only Web-HTML (with manual conversion of
> forms and input?)
> > * Heavy emphasis is placed on Visual editor and
> JSF, as if any 4GL
> > programmer cares about it or wants to learn
> it
> > * The IDE is very powerful but is also very
> complex
> >
> > Well, IBM, try again!... I'd suggest these steps:
> >
> > * Creating a real 4GL layer to
> edit/compile/debug, hiding EGL
> > underneath or generating Java directly, with
> no need for
> > conversion tools
> > * Creating a Java GUI that runs in Windows and
> in a browser as an applet
> > * Extending INPUT to handle JSF forms (for the
> very few programmers
> > that want to use this fine technology)
> > * Extending the syntax to do OO (see Python for
> easy OO) and let
> > Java Objects be used from 4GL
> >
> > In summary: 4GL is a simple, powerful, language,
> in a simple
> > environment. Simplicity is key. Let me simplify
> your job and tell you
> > what I'd like to see in the next EGL presentation:
> >
> > 1. Start with a 4GL program with a form and a
> report
> > 2. Run a shell and type "newfglpc program.4gl" -
> creating program.jar
> > - and then run "newfglrun program" and show a
> window with the
> > program running in GUI mode
> > 3. Then, run "newfglpc --web program.4gl" -
> creating a .war, this
> > time - and then drop the warfile in an
> appserver; then go to a URL
> > like "http://server/4gl/program" and show it
> run on the browser
> > with the exact same look&feel that in GUI
> mode.
> > 4. And then, after establishing that the "New
> Informix 4GL" can
> > really substitute on the old one, only then,
> very carefully, the
> > demo could go on about JSF, app servers,
> complex IDE's (editing
> > and debugging 4GL directly), etc., so that
> nobody is scared. ;-)
> >
> > Am I expecting too much? Is it not possible? Is it
> not profitable?
> > Anyway, I hope this helps and I'm sorry for any
> imprecision.
> >
> > Fernando
> >
>
> sending to informix-list
>


=====
Rob Vorbroker Phone: 513/336-8695
Vorbroker Consulting, Inc. Fax: 513/336-6812
www.vorbroker.com robv@vorbroker.com
sending to informix-list