>>And how many developing worlds are writing the next great business app?
>
>All of them.
>

Mark,

I think you need to do your homework and define what is a developing nation.
Only two non first world nations are writing software: china and india.

Not the rest of the world.

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Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
>
>
>
>>> And how many developing worlds are writing the next great business app?
>>
>> All of them.
>>
>
> Mark,
>
> I think you need to do your homework and define what is a developing
> nation.
> Only two non first world nations are writing software: china and india.
>
> Not the rest of the world.

Don't be so sure:
http://www.techimo.com/newsapp/index.pl?photo=18350

And I also aware of offshoring from India and China to Vietnam and
elsewhere.

Once the criteria is reduced to only cost ... the downward spiral will
continue.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

On Jun 18, 10:54 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:

> And I also aware of offshoring from India and China to Vietnam and
> elsewhere.
>
> Once the criteria is reduced to only cost ... the downward spiral will
> continue.

If the implication is that offshoring to India (no idea about
china) is only to reduce cost, then you are completely wrong.
India is getting it because Indians are doing a good job.
An American programmer/DBA cost upto 3 times more
than an indian in India. Are they 3 times more productive.
The answer is plain NO.

Also Indians are only moving low end jobs to Mexico. India
has moved up much higher in value chain. The day oracle
and microsoft open up R&D centers in Mexico with PhD
qualified employees working there, we shall talk about
competition to india.

Data Cruncher wrote:
> On Jun 18, 10:54 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>
>> And I also aware of offshoring from India and China to Vietnam and
>> elsewhere.
>>
>> Once the criteria is reduced to only cost ... the downward spiral will
>> continue.
>
> If the implication is that offshoring to India (no idea about
> china) is only to reduce cost, then you are completely wrong.
> India is getting it because Indians are doing a good job.
> An American programmer/DBA cost upto 3 times more
> than an indian in India. Are they 3 times more productive.
> The answer is plain NO.

If we are talking only programmers I'd be inclined to say that they
are equally or more productive in some respects.

But we are talking about a lot of support and customer service
jobs for the most part.

> Also Indians are only moving low end jobs to Mexico.

ROFL!

That's not what is causing the angst in Bangalore. <g>
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message
news:1182216334.96655@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
>> Also Indians are only moving low end jobs to Mexico.
>
> ROFL!
>
> That's not what is causing the angst in Bangalore. <g>


do you have anything to back your statement.

"DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message
news:1182216334.96655@bubbleator.drizzle.com...

> If we are talking only programmers I'd be inclined to say that they
> are equally or more productive in some respects.

Even 1% is mathematically more :-)

Fact is that when a CIO looks at the tab he has to
pick - $90K for a US based Java/Oracle programmer
and $30K for India based person, it is no brainer
which one he will pick and that is what is happening.
Guys who run the business are not fools and that
includes your god Larry Ellison also. Just ask any
Oracle employee how much and what work Oracle
India does.

Do I see fear in your post. You should. India has
Oracle experts dime a dozen and so far you have
given no indication that you are better than them,
not even that 1% :-)

A lot of outsourcing has backfired. There are a lot
of companies that have found the lower productivity,
corrupt governments, lack of technology infrastructure,
and communication problems between cultures more expensive
than paying locals to do the work. While it appears to
work better for unskilled labor, it does not translate
equally for "skilled" labor, such as information
technology, or the legal community for that matter.

There are law firms in the US now outsourcing a lot
of legal work to India, but after going through the
gymnastics many are finding it more trouble than it's
worth. IBM Global Services wants to move all their
contracts to India, or any other "developing" nation
that has cheaper labor than the US. They are actively
replacing US Citizens with folks in Brazil, Viet Nam,
Pakistan, and China. The conference calls I've been
on for my team should have been recorded for the comedy
channel, listening to the IBM a$$hole manager trying to
ask questions to people in Brazil and India, and the
phone problems, lack of English speakers, etc etc, I
never laughed so hard in my life. It was priceless.

-t-

Data Cruncher wrote:
> "DA Morgan" <damorgan@psoug.org> wrote in message
> news:1182216334.96655@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
>
>> If we are talking only programmers I'd be inclined to say that they
>> are equally or more productive in some respects.
>
> Even 1% is mathematically more :-)
>
> Fact is that when a CIO looks at the tab he has to
> pick - $90K for a US based Java/Oracle programmer
> and $30K for India based person, it is no brainer
> which one he will pick and that is what is happening.
> Guys who run the business are not fools and that
> includes your god Larry Ellison also. Just ask any
> Oracle employee how much and what work Oracle
> India does.
>
> Do I see fear in your post. You should. India has
> Oracle experts dime a dozen and so far you have
> given no indication that you are better than them,
> not even that 1% :-)
>
>

"Data Cruncher" <dcruncher4@aim.com> wrote in message
news:1182184630.629584.250900@u2g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jun 18, 10:54 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>
>> And I also aware of offshoring from India and China to Vietnam and
>> elsewhere.
>>
>> Once the criteria is reduced to only cost ... the downward spiral will
>> continue.
>
> If the implication is that offshoring to India (no idea about
> china) is only to reduce cost, then you are completely wrong.
> India is getting it because Indians are doing a good job.
> An American programmer/DBA cost upto 3 times more
> than an indian in India. Are they 3 times more productive.
> The answer is plain NO.

Is it just me who is struck that the argument above seems to be: "Offshoring
to India isn't just about cost. They're cheaper too!"?

"Tool" <tool@thetool.com> wrote

>A lot of outsourcing has backfired.

So is onshore projects. Isn't there an oft repeated
stats about faiure rate of projects. Something
close to 90% of all IT projects in US fail big time.
So it is any surprising why outsourced projects
also fail.

You might like to watch the series found here:

http://www.thecorporation.com

The chapters on Nike and IBM are I think my favorites.

The IBM chapter shows IBM's founder sitting with Hitler,
negotiating over dinner the contracts to supply the Nazis
with the counting machines used at the Nazi death camps.
This should put IBM in a whole different light for you.

The Nike chapter shows how efficient Nike is at computing
the cost of making clothing and of course shoes, exploiting
people in developing countries.

The film shows you how corporations have evolved in the
US, and if a corporation were to undergo a personality
profile you would find in most cases many if not all
would qualify as psychopath.

You'll find the video chapters available for free on
Youtube.

All the issues and arguments about outsourcing are just
superficial. Under the skin lies one simple truth, it's
all about greed.


Data Cruncher wrote:
> "Tool" <tool@thetool.com> wrote
>
>> A lot of outsourcing has backfired.
>
> So is onshore projects. Isn't there an oft repeated
> stats about faiure rate of projects. Something
> close to 90% of all IT projects in US fail big time.
> So it is any surprising why outsourced projects
> also fail.
>
>
>