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C'on Keith -- there are also a few bridges in Vienna, and they are very nicely located near the conference center... I am not too keen on camping, but, you are not forced to pay 600€ per night (assuming you stay three night, mon, tue, wed), the conference hotel is not even a third of this price.

Seriously, we realize it is expensive, but it's an investment. When your shop requires an expert to come and solve a problem, it may be 1000 euros or more per day, plus the same expenses...

The debate is over for Vienna but open for future conferences...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Keith Simmons
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:25
> To: informix-list
> Subject: Fwd: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
> Next Informix IDS Release...
>
> And another 1800 euros for room only accomodation, the price just
> racks up and up
>
> On 01/10/06, Captain Pedantic <theharlequin36@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> One unnamed customer runs 4,000 physical locations and more than
> 10,000
> > >> instances of the current IDS release with just eight DBAs, he
> claimed.
> > >> "If you can show me an Oracle installation [doing that], I'll buy you
> the
> > >> bottle of wine of your choice," he said.
> >
> > Why is the customer un-named?
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Informix-list mailing list
> > Informix-list@iiug.org
> > http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Informix-list@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

> Seriously, we realize it is expensive, but it's an investment.

An investment?
Who is supposed to come to Vienna? End-users who are using Informix and
Business Partners who are supporting them doing that.
Well, end-users already made an investement purchasing licenses.
BP's should invest so they can sell IBM's software? Should not it be the
other way around? IBM enabling BP's for successfull sales and tech support?

Davorin Kremenjas said:
>> Seriously, we realize it is expensive, but it's an investment.
>
> An investment?
> Who is supposed to come to Vienna? End-users who are using Informix and
> Business Partners who are supporting them doing that.
> Well, end-users already made an investement purchasing licenses.
> BP's should invest so they can sell IBM's software? Should not it be the
> other way around? IBM enabling BP's for successfull sales and tech
> support?

Yeah, why should end-users invest in education, seriously? I mean, you
have the cream of IBM's Informix experts in one venue, people who design
and build vital components of IDS who can teach you about new,
cutting-edge and undocumented features. You have users who have already
done stuff you will be doing and can teach you what to look out for. Why
should you pay to listen to them teach you how to make use of your
databases? Why should you have to contribute to the bill for facilities?
For that matter, why should you even bother to read the manuals?

For the sake of fucking fuck, yes, this conference IS expensive, but what
the do you moaning minnies all want? Either you have to get off your arses
and put together all the conference material, badger your employers to
donate education facilities and cajole local experts to present on them
(like the WAIUG forum) and make a cheap and interesting conference, or you
can pay someone to do all the drudge work for you (like the IDUG/IIUG EMEA
conference).

And for years now, I've been hearing sniping about how the IIUG are biased
towards America, and how they never do anything for Europe, and how unfair
they all are. Now there's a conference right in the heart of Europe and
they are still being pilloried. Have you guys who are all bitching about
this conference actually done anything constructive to show the IIUG what
could be done for less money?

I had a look at the list of speakers and I wish I could have afforded to
go myself. But I can't and I don't sit here and whinge about how
insensitive the IIUG are for charging money for high-quality speakers in
an expensive venue.

At the end of the day, you pay for your education one way or another. And
what is cheaper: 2000 Euros to learn from the best on a wide variety of
topics, 2000 Euros for a good IBM class on one topic (times however many
topics you need to cover), or days of downtime or lost business
opportunities because you didn't know better?

And while I'm already fucking pissed off: I've been involved in Informix
User Groups on three continents, and the bulk of the user communities on
all three were exactly the same bunch of indolent slackers who each wanted
the conferences presented in THEIR company canteen, with a free lunch
thrown in, with world class speakers, for free. And if it couldn't be in
THEIR company canteen, they wanted a free chauffeur-driven limousine to
pick them up at their front door and drop them off back at home as well.
The handful of gung-ho members in each country would then bust their balls
to try to deliver this, but there are always still moans:

Oh, it's so far from London to Warwick! Oh, why is the conference in Dubai
-- it's so far from Qatar!? Oh, I can't get management approval for a Tube
ticket at lunch time for a seminar. Oh, I can't get the day off, why can't
you reschedule the whole conference? Why can't you schedule the conference
on a day when I don't have yoga classes? Oh, I didn't like the food, their
was no lobster thermidore.

For God's sake, get a grip. Instead of moaning, why the hell are you
bastards never there when a conference is being organised? Why is it
always down to committee members and IBM to do all the legwork, provide
the speakers and all the facilities and refreshments? In fact, why are you
bastards never there when it comes to forming and inevitably re-forming
the latest incarnation of the local user group committee?

I think the phrase "ungrateful bastards" sums up my years of working in
the Informix user group community. Apart from the same handful of familiar
faces, all this loyalty to and enthusiasm for the product seems to
disappear when it comes to giving something back.

Go on, prove me wrong.

--
Yours in genuine and heartfelt anger,
Obnoxio

"... no bill is required as no value was provided."
-- Christine Normile

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is
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"Obnoxio The Clown" <obnoxio@serendipita.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.11.1159863143.29455.informix-list@iiug.org...

> I had a look at the list of speakers and I wish I could have afforded to
> go myself. But I can't and I don't sit here and whinge about how
> insensitive the IIUG are for charging money for high-quality speakers in
> an expensive venue.

To be fair, JGP (or was it Gary?) said that he was disappointed with the
level of registration and asked for feedback on why. I said I thought it
was too expensive. JGP disagreed. Davorin disagreed with him.

You seem to have adopted the astonishingly flexible position of blasting
those who say it's too expensive whilst simultaneously admitting you're not
going because it's too expensive!

Neil Truby said:
> "Obnoxio The Clown" <obnoxio@serendipita.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.11.1159863143.29455.informix-list@iiug.org...
>
>> I had a look at the list of speakers and I wish I could have afforded to
>> go myself. But I can't and I don't sit here and whinge about how
>> insensitive the IIUG are for charging money for high-quality speakers in
>> an expensive venue.
>
> To be fair, JGP (or was it Gary?) said that he was disappointed with the
> level of registration and asked for feedback on why. I said I thought it
> was too expensive. JGP disagreed. Davorin disagreed with him.
>
> You seem to have adopted the astonishingly flexible position of blasting
> those who say it's too expensive whilst simultaneously admitting you're
> not
> going because it's too expensive!

Actually, if you actually read my post you would have noticed that I was
blasting people for the following:

1. Moaning that they had to pay for education;
2. Moaning that the IIUG never did anything in Europe and then moaning for
what they did do when they did it;
3. Moaning that there was always something wrong with the education
offered by the IIUG and other local user groups yet not having the
gumption to get involved and contribute something themselves.

If users were actually prepared to contribute by preparing material,
coercing THEIR employers into providing facilities and refreshments and
then deliver the material, then a user group conference can be provided at
a much more acceptable rate. However, if everything has to be parachuted
in, it will cost much more to attend.

There is no logical inconsistency or flexibility in my position: I have
given enough of my time and effort over 20 years to say that I have done
what I can to help user groups provide something useful for users. I have
done my bit. Can all the people bitching here about the cost of this event
say the same?

--
Bye now,
Obnoxio

"... no bill is required as no value was provided."
-- Christine Normile

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is
believed to be clean.

Davorin Kremenjas wrote:
> > Seriously, we realize it is expensive, but it's an investment.
>
> An investment?
> Who is supposed to come to Vienna? End-users who are using Informix and
> Business Partners who are supporting them doing that.
> Well, end-users already made an investement purchasing licenses.
> BP's should invest so they can sell IBM's software? Should not it be the
> other way around? IBM enabling BP's for successfull sales and tech support?

The IIUG is an independent organisation and is not run by IBM.

The EMEA User Conference in Vienna is an IIUG event not an IBM event so
I think it is unfair to request that IBM pays for everyone to go.

This is run by the user group as an independent event and IBM provides
support to the user group as requested

The IBM event "IOD" in Southern california is IBM run and is the event
that IBM would chose if they are going to fund people to attend as this
is their event and there agenda.

Since your previous post was a reaction to mine, I feel I should comment
some more...

> Actually, if you actually read my post you would have noticed that I was
> blasting people for the following:
> 1. Moaning that they had to pay for education;
> 2. Moaning that the IIUG never did anything in Europe and then moaning for
> what they did do when they did it;
> 3. Moaning that there was always something wrong with the education
> offered by the IIUG and other local user groups yet not having the
> gumption to get involved and contribute something themselves.

I couldn't agree more. I saw an agenda, the speakers' names, I'm sure it
will be a great conference, and finally one in Europe.
Of course that such an education event should be paid for. Of course moaning
serves no purpose at all.

Now, here is the irony: Vienna is only a few hours drive from Croatia's
capital, Zagreb, where the most of the Informix users in Croatia are.
I personally know many people (DBA's mainly) who wanted to attend. The truth
is that only one person (in the whole country) was able to go.
One and only reason - the price.
That's not moaning, that's dissapointment.
To quote TBP, if the price was 500 Euros at least few more people would go,
for the same net price.
None of them go to conferences for drinks and food, they do that on weekend
barbecues at home :-)

Yes, finally one great IIUG conference in Europe, almost a walking distance
away, and we still can't go...

Davorin Kremenjas said:
> To quote TBP, if the price was 500 Euros at least few more people would
> go,
> for the same net price.
> None of them go to conferences for drinks and food, they do that on
> weekend
> barbecues at home :-)

Well, then, why not put together your own conference and organise your own
venues and ask IBM if they will send speakers to attend? Then you can
charge whatever you like ... if anything!

I can't imagine people are paying that kind of money JUST to eat Hilton
food, though.

--
Bye now,
Obnoxio

"... no bill is required as no value was provided."
-- Christine Normile

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is
believed to be clean.

Davorin Kremenjas wrote:
> Now, here is the irony: Vienna is only a few hours drive from Croatia's
> capital, Zagreb, where the most of the Informix users in Croatia are.
> I personally know many people (DBA's mainly) who wanted to attend. The truth
> is that only one person (in the whole country) was able to go.
Careful with that truth claim. IDUG are handing out little flags to be
put on the tags for those who like it. And I saw a cluster of at least 4
Croatians together just a few hours ago.
I was neither drunk, nor were my glasses dirty :-)
Nonetheless the lunch is indeed first class and one could have gotten
away cheaper.
Also there is no reason to stay at the Hilton since it's just across the
road from the subway and smack downtown.
Since it's the end of tourist seasons there ought to be tons of bed &
breakfast within a 1hr commute at a more affordable rate.

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 Solutions Development
IBM Toronto Lab

IOD Conference
http://www.ibm.com/software/data/ond...ness/conf2006/

> > To quote TBP, if the price was 500 Euros at least few more people would
> > go, for the same net price.
> > None of them go to conferences for drinks and food, they do that on
> > weekend
> > barbecues at home :-)
> Well, then, why not put together your own conference and organise your own
> venues and ask IBM if they will send speakers to attend? Then you can
> charge whatever you like ... if anything!

Yep, and it is surprisingly easy to get presenters from IBM. I've
organized events in the past and found them very cooperative, even
eager, to help. The venues are the hard/expensive part (depending in
part on the insurance regulations in your area).

> I can't imagine people are paying that kind of money JUST to eat Hilton
> food, though.

MMmmmmm, Hilton food....