Tom Newton wrote:

> All that eye-candy and junk food (in your mouse free hand) has
> muddled your brains.

Muddled brains. Mmmm. Muddled brains.

--
Old Man

"Swagger isn't courage." Lee Iacocca

On 2008-02-09, Ed LaBonte <noway@spam.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:01:28 -0800, Tom Newton wrote:
>
>> Once most of the people running Linux are ignorant couch potatos who
>> think that KDE (etc.) and Linux are the same thing, the game is over.
>> The software will become non-free and non-open source.
>>
>> They've already tried, remember:
>>
>> http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=116445
>>
>> But there wasn't a high enough percentage of couch potato, false Linux
>> runners around to allow them to pull it off.
>>
>> If we don't do something about this situation, if we don't drop KDE
>> (etc.) like the radioactively hot potatoes they are, you can kiss Linux
>> good-bye.
>
> My problem with this isn't your logic. This might have been a good
> argument 10 years ago. But events have argued just the opposite. There
> just is not a burgeoning market for non-free linux software. Beer
> drinking, smoking, masturbating subgenii notwithstanding.

A reasonable point. But the corporations are patient and clever.
Unobtrusive imperialism has long been one their primary strategies.

Bear with me for a few paragraphs:

The corporations are always saturating markets, and looking
for new ones...

How do they get native peoples around the world to give up their
agrarian economies and become dependent on this economy? By
sending in the missionaries who pretend to be interested in
converting them to Christianity, and the Peace Corps (and the
private orgs) pretending to be interested only with helping them
with obvious problems.

(Usually both groups really believe they are involved only in
their stated purposes, and fail to wonder why they are being
financed by the corporations...)

With all sorts of gifts for them, which are always things they
can't make themselves that take the place of things they have
been making for themselves for millennia.

Beware of strangers bearing gifts....

So now we move to the developed world, which is in a recession.

All these computers and periperhals and ISP accounts to sell, plus
the need to get all these people in the Internet seeing all those
ads and making it easy to collect information about them.

But they can't afford Windows/Mac!

Solution: Use those schmucks running Linux....Bunch of dedicated
amateurs without much money who love to help other people learn
Linux.

But the people the corporations want to use those Linux schmucks
for free technical support are never going put up with having
to learn Linux from the commandline. They aren't interested in
computers, they are interested in porn and music and movies and
video games and IM and IRC and web forums and email.

So the corporations pour millions into KDE (etc) to "help" those
poor wannabee Windows/Mac users learn to use Linux. A very pretty
and "user-friendly" clone of the Windows/Mac user interfaces.

Knowing that the Linux schmucks will snatch up this free gift
because it will seem to provide a way to get more people involved
in Linux.

But, surprise! It doesn't work out that way. The Linux groups are
flooded with people who just want technical support. Who don't
give and take, but just take. They aren't the apprentices that
the true Linux runners are looking for, but just mindless, selfish,
greedy consumers.

They have no interest in learning Linux, just getting their
multi-media programs up and running.

So they become dependent on KDE. And start paying a little
here and there for technical support, subsidized by the
corporations, because then they don't have to put up with
the trolls and nutjobs and amateurs pretending to be experts
on the various internet forums.

And they are really offended by all of the Linux runners who
tell them to RTFM.

The first thing on www.kde.org you see:

" Be free

KDE is an international technology team that creates [7]Free
Software for desktop and portable computing. Among KDE's
products are a modern desktop system for Linux and UNIX
platforms, comprehensive office productivity and groupware
suites and hundreds of software titles in many categories
including Internet and web applications, multimedia,
entertainment, educational, graphics and software development.
KDE software is translated into more than 60 languages and is
built with ease of use and modern accessibility principles in
mind. KDE4's full-featured applications run natively on Linux,
BSD, Solaris, Windows and Mac OS X. [8]More..."

Start of with the Big Lie. "Office productivity" anf "free"
are contradictory concepts, just for starters...

The last thing on the same page you see:

"KDE(R) and [81]the K Desktop Environment(R) logo are registered trademarks of [82]KDE e.V. |"

The corporations do not put 10's of millions of dollars into something
unless they expect a big payback.

The people now running most of the major distros have been bribed into using KDE
and pushing it instead of real Linux knowledge.

And into accepting more and more non-open-source and non-free software.

Currently, the majority of the people running Linux are just
ignorant couch potatoes who know how to use KDE. They are just
like the people who know how to use Windows/Mac.

They aren't going to put up a fight when the next attempt to make
Linux software proprietary is launched. As long as it doesn't cost
them anything at the time and they are toll pretty lies about how
it never will. They couldn't care less. They just want their free
operating system and colorful user-interface that looks just like
Windows.

They don't care if the software is technically "Free" or open source.
As long as they are getting it NOW, for no money from their pockets.

And they won't complain when little fees start slipping in, here and
there. As long as they are still getting a "bargain"..."saving money"

A lot these people are now highly-placed in the various distros...

For instance, Patrick Volkerding, the founder and leader of Slackware,
recently attended KDE's big 4.0 release gala in Mountainview, California:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.o...fadb508b848a32


Tom

--
calhobbit (at)
gmail [DOT] com

On 2008-02-09, Baho Utot <baho-utot@bildanet.com> wrote:
> Tom Newton wrote:
>
>> On 2008-02-09, Baho Utot <baho-utot@bildanet.com> wrote:
>>> Tom Newton wrote:
>>>

<delete>

>
> You must be from a wealthy country.
> You are very ignorant, Do you realize that the Philippines is a very poor
> country?

Yes. It also has a very low cost of living.

<delete>

The rest of your arguments are similarly specious.

You have decided what you are going to do and rationalized your choices
after the facta: But you are just taking the cheap and easy way out...

I do not find images of people I love on a computer screen to be a satisfactory
substitute for actually being with them.

Call me old-fashioned.

I think I am simply sane.

Tom

--
calhobbit (at)
gmail [DOT] com

Tom Newton wrote:
> These days, there are two kinds of Linux runners. Thanks to the
> corporate-sponsored yuppy geeks at KDE/Gnome/freedesktop.org and
> the distros that support those Windows-clone user-interfaces,
>
> There are the true Linux runners, who want to learn Linux and to
> share their knowledge with others and/or write-maintain the free,
> open-source software that makes Linux possible.
>
> And there are the false Linux runners who simply want a
> free operating system and free technical support, who
> don't care about learning Linux and don't have any intention
> of doing their fair share of the work needed to maintain
> Linux. Or of donating to the developers and maintainers of
> the software they use.

I think it's unfair to use the words "true" and "false" to
divide users into two camps. The main things is that there
are different levels of users out there with different
levels of expectations and different desires with regards
to how much they want to learn/play with their OS.

>
> They just want to watch videos and listen to music and shop
> and play video games and engage in mindless chatter with IM
> and IRC and on web forums, etc.

A valid class of user (e.g. neither true or false).

>
> The false Linux runners are destroying Linux, which is precisely
> why the corporations have put 10's of millions of dollars into
> KDE and the like.

???

>
> They know the couch potatos won't take the time to learn Linux
> from the command line (note that I am not talking about Linux
> without X, which I use) and they won't learn to type because
> they need one hand free for their beer, cigarettes, junkfood,
> cellphone, or whatever else they are consuming while they click
> and point with the other hand.

Well... I do agree somewhat that people need to keep on learning,
AND personally I'd LOVE for people to put that learning into
Linux.... but you know... there's other stuff to learn out there
besides Linux (believe it or not).

So... I'm fine with the idea of a class of user that doesn't have
to read thousands of pages of documentation and detail to
understand why things work on their desktop. I'm also fine with
those that do.

>
> The corporations really want that other hand free to consume...
>
> And they really _don't_ want people to learn how to run computers.

I think companies want computers and OS's to be tools that assist
them in getting their jobs done. They want to choose the right
tool for the job. Windows is often chosen because it has a
reputation... and apparently the reputation is good enough
that companies feel safer making that choice. However, GNU/Linux
is a VERY flexible platform able to integrate pieces of a
diverse enterprise of computing platforms... so diverse that
Windows is absolutely WORTHLESS. And I think that is why you
see so much GNU/Linux in the enterprise today. Not displacing
Windows so much in the ares where Windows "works".... but
filling the gap in all the places where Windows just plain
falls apart.

>
> Once most of the people running Linux are ignorant couch potatos who think
> that KDE (etc.) and Linux are the same thing, the game is over. The
> software will become non-free and non-open source.

Hey... I love those folks. I mean, that's the ultimate
success story. When somebody finds a computer to be so friendly
that they are really unaware of it being something other than
Windows (or whatever)... that's a HUGE win!

>
> They've already tried, remember:
>
> http://www.gartner.com/DisplayDocument?doc_cd=116445
>
> But there wasn't a high enough percentage of couch potato, false
> Linux runners around to allow them to pull it off.
>
> If we don't do something about this situation, if we don't drop KDE (etc.)
> like the radioactively hot potatoes they are, you can kiss Linux good-bye.

Wow. Look.... I like KDE... I like Gnome... I like XFCE, etc...
Shoot, I like fvwm and my beloved headless machines working without
a graphical UI over serial lines!! It's all good... it's all needed...
AND ... most importantly, it's a WHOLE LOT OF FUN making all of these
uses for GNU/Linux distros, etc.

>
> Or prepare to become, literally, outlaws.

??? I would thing the evil "falsies" that are out there killing
Linux would be the outlaws

>
> No, KDE (etc.) are not nice ways to introduce people from the Mac/Windows
> world to Linux. They are traps deliberately set and baited by huge corporations
> who hate free and open source software and people who really understand computers.
> And they especially hate computers they can't access at will. Which they cannot
> on Linux OSes that don't run KDE (etc.).

???

>
> Yes. I know that every blabbermouthed idiot on the Linux groups going to reply to
> this. Sorry. But don't blame me. If it wasn't for KDE (etc.) none of these
> lazy, thieving couch potatoes would be running Linux.

Actually in your other post you were quite upset that people did not
respond. You're not a "falsie" are you?

>
> If I can ignore their malicious gibbering, so can you.

Well.. I think discussion is always a good thing, even if I don't
agree with a particular viewpoint. And I'm pretty sure that what
you've written here DOES NOT really represent the view you were
attempting to communicate... such is email and usenet and the like.

I too am frustrated by ignorant computer users. But I think
it's a universal problem. I mean... we want everyone to
use a computer, but we don't make them get any kind of "license"
to drive. Maybe "we" should. But it's probably too late
for that.

Imagine an Internet without spam and porn. Life would be different
if it were just the technical community communicating using computers to
solve real problems instead of marketers, exploiters, conmen, etc.
But... such is life (and there are many post examples... not just
computing).

So, you want everyone to only do what you want them to do? Where is
your respect for human freedoms?

I am going to switch to KDE just to spite you!!!

I am deleting my 500+ shell scripts right now.

i

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:23:30 +0000, spike1 wrote:

> In the sacred domain of comp.os.linux.misc,
> Tom Newton <tom@server.invalid> didnst hastily scribble thusly:
>> I get your point, but it didn't hit the target: I am not talking about
>> building anything. That's been done.
>
> What is it with you and your one way conversation bollocks?
> What is the point of posting only your half of a conversation somewhere?
> Hmmm?

He's posting to two groups, setting followups to one, and then adding back
colm with each of his posts.

Which leads me to two obvious conclusions:

He want to preform unopposed in colm.

He is likely being at least somewhat misleading in his quoting.


He's at about the same level as those who constantly change their
arguments and hide behind X-No-Archive to keep people from noticing.


--
Phoenix

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:31:49 -0800, Tom Newton <tom@server.invalid> wrote:

>I think I am simply sane.
>
>Tom

No, you're not remotely sane...
--
You possess a mind not merely twisted, but actually sprained.

In the sacred domain of comp.os.linux.setup,
Dan C <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> didnst hastily scribble thusly:
> He's as low as it gets. You did know this is the dickhead who formerly
> posted as "Alan Connor", right? If not, you do now.

That explains everything.
--
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
| spike1@freenet.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grant <g_r_a_n_t_@dodo.com.au> did eloquently scribble:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:31:49 -0800, Tom Newton <tom@server.invalid> wrote:

>>I think I am simply sane.
>>
>>Tom

> No, you're not remotely sane...

He is simple though.

--
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
| spike1@freenet.co.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
| in | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
| Computer Science | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.remover.rr.com> did eloquently scribble:

> Troll, Troll, Troll your bait gently in the group.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily posting all this poop?

> Who are of the same type who are false radio users, false TV users, and
> false automobile users. How will cars ever survive with so many false users.

> Now that you mention it, what about all the true linux users who are also
> false computer users? The false computer users by refusing to fully
> understand and appreciate the hardware and worse yet refuse to participate
> in new chip designs will be the death of the PC.

Of course. Anyone who refuses to control the computer manually by flipping
bits on a switchboard... Anyone incapable of reading punchtape... Anyone
who's never used a patch cable to redirect output from a circuit...
Not worth bothering about.


--
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
| spike1@freenet.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------