Have installed Fedora on a Second Hard Drive;
BUT it did NOT write to the MBR of the second hard drive;
and it's anaconda installation routine refuses to update or write a new
MBR.

Can someone please tell me which Linux utility Fedora is meant to write to
its MBR with, and how to use it.

I looked at the "grub" thing & used "grub-install" - - I was hoping it
would install a bootloader type thing but instead has installed "grub" as
some kind of limited command line that is only usable if you know what
names Linux calles things by.

I just want one of these Linux drives to be able to boot;
can any Linux user please help.

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:58:48 +1100, Daeron wrote:

> Have installed Fedora on a Second Hard Drive;
> BUT it did NOT write to the MBR of the second hard drive;
> and it's anaconda installation routine refuses to update or write a new
> MBR.
>
> Can someone please tell me which Linux utility Fedora is meant to write to
> its MBR with, and how to use it.
>
> I looked at the "grub" thing & used "grub-install" - - I was hoping it
> would install a bootloader type thing but instead has installed "grub" as
> some kind of limited command line that is only usable if you know what
> names Linux calles things by.
>
> I just want one of these Linux drives to be able to boot;
> can any Linux user please help.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but how would a system boot from
the MBR of a second drive? The system is always going to start at
the MBR of the first drive (unless your BIOS has an option to do
otherwise). The bootloader on the first drive should then point
to the root partition of the OS in question on the second drive.
No?

Grub displays a menu of OS choices on my system, where I have
three OSes on three different drives, and I just have to move
the cursor up or down and hit Enter for the one I want to boot.

Up spake Charles Sullivan:
> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but how would a system boot from
> the MBR of a second drive? The system is always going to start at
> the MBR of the first drive (unless your BIOS has an option to do
> otherwise). The bootloader on the first drive should then point
> to the root partition of the OS in question on the second drive.

You are correct.

For example, if you

- install Mandrake on the first disk (/dev/hda1)
- install FC on the second disk (/dev/hdb1)

You still need to

- add /dev/hda1 and /dev/hdb1 to the bootloader menu
- install the bootloader on, say, the second disk (/dev/hdb)
- add /dev/hdb to the start of the BIOS boot list

There is no way for the FC installer to perform the last action; you
must do it manually.

--
-trent
The light of the eyes is as a comet,
And Zen's activity is as lightning.
The sword that kills the man
Is the sword that saves the man.

Charles Sullivan wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:58:48 +1100, Daeron wrote:
>> Can someone please tell me which Linux utility Fedora is meant to write
>> to its MBR with, and how to use it.
>>
>> I looked at the "grub" thing & used "grub-install" - - I was hoping it
>> would install a bootloader type thing but instead has installed "grub" as
>> some kind of limited command line that is only usable if you know what
>> names Linux calles things by.
>>
>> I just want one of these Linux drives to be able to boot;
>> can any Linux user please help.
>
> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but how would a system boot from
> the MBR of a second drive? The system is always going to start at
> the MBR of the first drive (unless your BIOS has an option to do
> otherwise).

** In short ** The First drive's MBR points to it's OS's & any other drives,
the MBR on the other drives should at least know about the OS on that
drive. I can not recall any OS installation routine that has ever installed
itself without ensuring the drive it was on was bootable.

Also as it happens,
Yes the BIOS does allow one to boot from the second or any specified MBR;
However that is only a fallback trouble-shooting tool. But did allow me to
verify that the Fedora install had left the drive un-bootable.

> The bootloader on the first drive should then point
> to the root partition of the OS in question on the second drive.
> No?

No.
Bad Management: That would special treatment for the Linux system; it &
only it is allowed to write to the primary MBR. Both un-enforcable and:
Dangerous Practice: That would mean any time some other system such as Mr
Gates weapons, wrote to the Primary MBR that the Linux system would become
unbootable.

> Grub displays a menu of OS choices on my system, where I have
> three OSes on three different drives, and I just have to move
> the cursor up or down and hit Enter for the one I want to boot.

Yes, thanks I just need the MBR on the drive to boot the Linux system;
no need for it to do anything else.
From what I've been able to find out, aparantly the Linux BootManager has
to be able to point the system not only at a certain drive or MS-Dos
partition, but at a specific file inside a specific MS-Dos partition --
which is different for each version of the Linux kernel?

Fedora seems to count drives & partitions from One instead of Zero?
And calls drives by 'Letter" instead of number?
If my reading of the docs I've been able to find is correct;
I believe the Fedora name for the 'kernel' is:
/dev/hdb1 (wehich is mounted at /boot) and the file is:
/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.9-1.667

If this is all correct, can you or someone please tell me how to get it to
write the required bootmanager to the drives own MBR.

Trent Buck wrote:
> Up spake Charles Sullivan:
>> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but how would a system boot from
>> the MBR of a second drive? The system is always going to start at
>> the MBR of the first drive (unless your BIOS has an option to do
>> otherwise). The bootloader on the first drive should then point
>> to the root partition of the OS in question on the second drive.
>
> You are correct.
I think he's mistaken and what you've specified below is correct.
And my Bootmanager already DOES point to the drive with the Linux on it
(/dev/hdb in Linux talk) & can even point to the /boot partition
(/dev/hdb1) - -
Problem is that Linux does *not* boot.

From what I've found in the GRUB documents the Linux OS requires a special
Bootmanager to boot, it requires the Bootmanager itself to point to s file
location within a MS-Dos partition it calls "/boot"
- - other systems generally just use a boot-strap at the very start of the
drive or a MS style Dos-partition.
My problem is that this anaconda installation routine does not allow one to
"update" the installation drives own MBR unless it is the primary drive on
the system.

So can you tell me how do I mannually update the second drives MBR so that
it can boot the Linux OS that's installed on it?

> For example, if you
>
> - install Mandrake on the first disk (/dev/hda1)
> - install FC on the second disk (/dev/hdb1)
>
> You still need to
>
> - add /dev/hda1 and /dev/hdb1 to the bootloader menu
> - install the bootloader on, say, the second disk (/dev/hdb)
> - add /dev/hdb to the start of the BIOS boot list
>
> There is no way for the FC installer to perform the last action; you
> must do it manually.
>

Up spake Daeron:

> From what I've found in the GRUB documents the Linux OS requires a special
> Bootmanager to boot, it requires the Bootmanager itself to point to s file
> location within a MS-Dos partition it calls "/boot"

After the BIOS loads and before the kernel loads, the bootloader runs.
This is generally LILO or GRUB (or isolinux for CDROMs). It has to be
installed in the MBR *or* at the start of a partition. The Microsoft
equivalent is the ntldr program, I think.

The /boot directory typically contains kernel(s) and (where necessary)
their INITial RamDisks. Actually kernels and initrds can be located
anywhere on the root partition. The filesystem /boot is on can be
anything supported by the bootloader or in the initrd (I think).

When you install the bootloader, it copies the initrds to the MBR and
remembers the partition and path of the kernels.

The definitive reference for this stuff is the From Power Up to Bash
Prompt HOWTO,
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/From-PowerUp-T...mpt-HOWTO.html

> So can you tell me how do I mannually update the second drives MBR so that
> it can boot the Linux OS that's installed on it?

I use LILO (rather than GRUB). The lilo.conf file looks something like this:

# Warning: this is based on a working Debian config.
# FC and MDK may differ slightly.

# Where is the bootloader installed:
boot=/dev/hdb

vga=normal
lba32
install=menu
map=/boot/map
delay=5
prompt
timeout=100
read-only
image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.6-2-686-smp
label="Mandrake"
initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.6.6-2-686-smp
root=/dev/hda1
image=/mnt/hdb1/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.6
label="Fedora Core 3"
initrd=/mnt/hdb1/boot/initrd.img-2.4.6
root=/dev/hdb1

If FC3 is installed to /dev/hdb1 and Mandrake is bootable, you should be
able to use something similar to the above in /etc/lilo.conf to install
the bootloader onto the second disk's MBR.

(Note: you don't have to install the bootloader from the distro it boots
into -- e.g. you could install it from Mandrake or the FC rescue CD.)

--
-trent
Nothing is true. Everything is permissible.

Up spake Daeron:
> Bad Management: That would special treatment for the Linux system; it &
> only it is allowed to write to the primary MBR. Both un-enforcable and:
>
> Dangerous Practice: That would mean any time some other system such as Mr
> Gates weapons, wrote to the Primary MBR that the Linux system would become
> unbootable.

FWIW I have LILO installed on /dev/hde; it boots distros on /dev/hd[ae][12].

I have successfully installed NT 5.0 and NT 5.1 on /dev/hdb after
physically removing hde (NT couldn't differentiate between the first and
third IDE buses). IIRC NT 5.x will clobber the MBR of /dev/hda.

--
-trent
Live phase 1 <--> RJ45 pin 3 GND <--> RJ45 pin 8
Live phase 2 <--> RJ45 pin 6 Is this suitable?
Live phase 3 <--> RJ45 pin 2 Or should we kill phones too?
Neutral <--> RJ45 pin 1 -- Arvid

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:44:02 +1100, Daeron wrote:

> Charles Sullivan wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:58:48 +1100, Daeron wrote:
>>> Can someone please tell me which Linux utility Fedora is meant to write
>>> to its MBR with, and how to use it.
>>>
>>> I looked at the "grub" thing & used "grub-install" - - I was hoping it
>>> would install a bootloader type thing but instead has installed "grub" as
>>> some kind of limited command line that is only usable if you know what
>>> names Linux calles things by.
>>>
>>> I just want one of these Linux drives to be able to boot;
>>> can any Linux user please help.
>>
>> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but how would a system boot from
>> the MBR of a second drive? The system is always going to start at
>> the MBR of the first drive (unless your BIOS has an option to do
>> otherwise).
>
> ** In short ** The First drive's MBR points to it's OS's & any other drives,
> the MBR on /the other drives should at least know about the OS on that
> drive. I can not recall any OS installation routine that has ever
> installed itself without ensuring the drive it was on was bootable.

If you're talking about Windows, it _insists_ on being the first
drive for its installation.

> Also as it happens,
> Yes the BIOS does allow one to boot from the second or any specified MBR;
> However that is only a fallback trouble-shooting tool. But did allow me to
> verify that the Fedora install had left the drive un-bootable.
>
>> The bootloader on the first drive should then point
>> to the root partition of the OS in question on the second drive.
>> No?
>
> No.
> Bad Management: That would special treatment for the Linux system; it &
> only it is allowed to write to the primary MBR. Both un-enforcable and:
> Dangerous Practice: That would mean any time some other system such as Mr
> Gates weapons, wrote to the Primary MBR that the Linux system would become
> unbootable.

Unless you're using some boot manager software on a primary
partition, how else would you do it?

>> Grub displays a menu of OS choices on my system, where I have three
>> OSes on three different drives, and I just have to move the cursor up
>> or down and hit Enter for the one I want to boot.
>
> Yes, thanks I just need the MBR on the drive to boot the Linux system;
> no need for it to do anything else.
> From what I've been able to find out, aparantly the Linux BootManager
> has
> to be able to point the system not only at a certain drive or MS-Dos
> partition, but at a specific file inside a specific MS-Dos partition --
> which is different for each version of the Linux kernel?
>
> Fedora seems to count drives & partitions from One instead of Zero? And
> calls drives by 'Letter" instead of number? If my reading of the docs
> I've been able to find is correct; I believe the Fedora name for the
> 'kernel' is: /dev/hdb1 (wehich is mounted at /boot) and the file is:
> /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.9-1.667
>
> If this is all correct, can you or someone please tell me how to get it
> to
> write the required bootmanager to the drives own MBR.

As far as Linux is concerned, IDE drives are labeled /dev/hda,
/dev/hdb, etc., and the partitions are identified with a number
1 through N, e.g., /dev/hda1.

Grub uses its own zero-base terminology, with (hd0) corresponding
to /dev/hda, (hd0,0) corresponding to /dev/hda1, etc.

When installing a new OS I generally rejumper the drive as
the first drive for the duration of the installation, then
restore it to its original configuration and tweak
/etc/fstab appropriately. That way it gets it's own MBR (which
isn't used for anything so long as it remains a second or
subsequent drive).

BTW, the last time I installed Linux on a second drive, I noticed
that grub couldn't find it if the root was identified by a LABEL.
I had to change it to the actual partition reference, e.g.,
change the 'kernel' line in grub.conf from:
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-x.x.x ro root=LABEL=/2
to
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-x.x.x ro root=/dev/hdb7

Trent Buck wrote:
> Up spake Daeron:
>
>> From what I've found in the GRUB documents the Linux OS requires a
>> special Bootmanager to boot, it requires the Bootmanager itself to point
>> to s file location within a MS-Dos partition it calls "/boot"
>
> . . .
> When you install the bootloader, it copies the initrds to the MBR and
> remembers the partition and path of the kernels.
>
> The definitive reference for this stuff is the From Power Up to Bash
> Prompt HOWTO,
> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/From-PowerUp-T...mpt-HOWTO.html
>
>> So can you tell me how do I mannually update the second drives MBR so
>> that it can boot the Linux OS that's installed on it?
>
> I use LILO (rather than GRUB).
> The lilo.conf file looks something like this:
>
> # Warning: this is based on a working Debian config.
> # FC and MDK may differ slightly.
>
> # Where is the bootloader installed:
> boot=/dev/hdb
>
> vga=normal
> lba32
> install=menu
> map=/boot/map
> delay=5
> prompt
> timeout=100
> read-only
> image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.6-2-686-smp
> label="Mandrake"
> initrd=/boot/initrd.img-2.6.6-2-686-smp
> root=/dev/hda1
> image=/mnt/hdb1/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.6
> label="Fedora Core 3"
> initrd=/mnt/hdb1/boot/initrd.img-2.4.6
> root=/dev/hdb1
>
> If FC3 is installed to /dev/hdb1 and Mandrake is bootable, you should be
> able to use something similar to the above in /etc/lilo.conf to install
> the bootloader onto the second disk's MBR.
>
> (Note: you don't have to install the bootloader from the distro it boots
> into -- e.g. you could install it from Mandrake or the FC rescue CD.)

THank you Trent;
excellent reference & example conf file.

Trent Buck wrote:
> The definitive reference for this stuff is the From Power Up to Bash
> Prompt HOWTO,
> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/From-PowerUp-T...mpt-HOWTO.html
>
>> So can you tell me how do I mannually update the second drives MBR so
>> that it can boot the Linux OS that's installed on it?
>
> I use LILO (rather than GRUB). The lilo.conf file looks something like
> this:
> . . .
>
> If FC3 is installed to /dev/hdb1 and Mandrake is bootable, you should be
> able to use something similar to the above in /etc/lilo.conf to install
> the bootloader onto the second disk's MBR.
>
> (Note: you don't have to install the bootloader from the distro it boots
> into -- e.g. you could install it from Mandrake or the FC rescue CD.)

I suspect this issue is behind a long standing problem
many professionals (most of whom are Unix users) have had with Linux
for years;
[[ though we do not need Linux any more than we would need MS-Dos;
we do like to occassionaly have a look at whatever is on offer;
to that end when someone has a bit of spare time he goes to throw
something like Linux onto a spare drive. . . ]]

yesterday in doing Web searches for clues on this
Linux boot vs. multiple drives issue I quickly came across several long
standing (since Fedora 1 & 2) complaints about NT users who also couldn't
get Linux to boot after installation. These requests from NT users had
simply gone unanswered; elsewise were side tracked into talk about
re-arranging their drives.
- - that's when a horrable possibility occuried to me.

- - What IF, the Linux developers were so accustomed to Bill Gates MS Dos
envirnoment; that they never foresaw or supported the possibility of Linux
installation being on a second drive.
- - that would not be either wicked nor as stupid as some people may
imagine; after all essentially the entire Linux user base are ex-MS users;
and so complaints about the probnlem would be so rare that the Linux
developers could discount them as end-user mis-understanding rather than a
Linux installation weakness - - even for over ten years.
And Linux users, like Microsoft users might become accustomed to the
concept that they should only install a OS to the primary drive.

My question then, is in two parts:
Q1: does the above sound consistant with your experience & what you've heard
from other LInux users? (I suspose i.e. are you about the only Linux person
you know of who has Linux on a non-primary drive? (ignoring the CD based
systems that are specially packaged for running from a CD; I'm refering to
Linux being on a second drive etc.)

Q2: does this also mean that I will have to re-write the MBR every time I
want to update the Linux kernel?