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I'm having a problem. I'm planning for a college course in Apache web
server, and have opted to teach the standard way of compiling and
installing the software from source. The problem is to configure the
machine to start Apache at boot.

It seems one of the rules of creating your own Linux dist is to make
sure your init config doesn't look like anyone else's. It's not just a
matter of a layer of config tools on top of the standard files, etc.
The hierarchy of scripts is really different from Red Hat to Slackware
to Ubuntu.

So I'm at a loss. If I can't teach how to make Apache start at boot, I
can't really teach them how to compile and install from source. Since
the students choose whatever dist they like, I can't really teach
installing Apache at all. To me, that is an essential part of the
course.

I'm basically just looking for some feedback on this. Have you been
taught some standard way of dealing with rc scripts? Any great ideas in
general?

Thanks!

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:29:25 +0100, Kronocide <henning@kronocide.com> wrote:

> It seems one of the rules of creating your own Linux dist is to make
> sure your init config doesn't look like anyone else's. It's not just a
> matter of a layer of config tools on top of the standard files, etc.
> The hierarchy of scripts is really different from Red Hat to Slackware
> to Ubuntu.
>
> So I'm at a loss. If I can't teach how to make Apache start at boot, I
> can't really teach them how to compile and install from source. Since
> the students choose whatever dist they like, I can't really teach
> installing Apache at all. To me, that is an essential part of the
> course.

I think this is a better approach: Teach them how to start apache using
means that comes with apache. Teach them to write a script that does
whatever it takes in a chosen arrangement of yours. Then tell them that
distributors have made (dis)similar choices, and each student should
investigate how it is done in their distribution. Make it a homework
assignment to write a short description of their own environment.

In other words, your mission is not to teach them a recipe of twenty
keypresses and two mouse gestures that installs apache as a service on
a computer running no matter what distribution. Your mission is to
enable them to figure out how it is done on their particular distro,
with the fallback of writing a script they can stick in /etc/inittab.

As far as I know, all distros start from init and /etc/inittab. Teach
them to start there if everything else fails.

-Enrique

On 26 Nov 2005 05:29:25 -0800 "Kronocide" <henning@kronocide.com> wrote:

[snipped]
> I'm basically just looking for some feedback on this. Have you been
> taught some standard way of dealing with rc scripts? Any great ideas in
> general?

Why not use Webmin: http://www.webmin.com/index.html

--
remove MYSHOES to email

"Kronocide" <henning@kronocide.com> wrote in message
news:1133011765.417731.186440@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> I'm having a problem. I'm planning for a college course in Apache web
> server, and have opted to teach the standard way of compiling and
> installing the software from source. The problem is to configure the
> machine to start Apache at boot.
>
> It seems one of the rules of creating your own Linux dist is to make
> sure your init config doesn't look like anyone else's. It's not just a
> matter of a layer of config tools on top of the standard files, etc.
> The hierarchy of scripts is really different from Red Hat to Slackware
> to Ubuntu.
>
> So I'm at a loss. If I can't teach how to make Apache start at boot, I
> can't really teach them how to compile and install from source. Since
> the students choose whatever dist they like, I can't really teach
> installing Apache at all. To me, that is an essential part of the
> course.

Reverse engineer it. Do what the rest of us do when packaging tools, and
look how the experts do it. For Apache, I'd take apart an SRPM and build an
RPM from it for RedHat or SuSE, look at a deb if we were teaching in Debian
or Ubunto, etc. If I didn't have or want an RPM, I'd teach the students to
look at the existing examples, such as the network init script, and show how
it has start/stop/chkconfig/restart/status options, how it uses chkconfig to
manage enabling and restarting it, etc.

> I'm basically just looking for some feedback on this. Have you been
> taught some standard way of dealing with rc scripts? Any great ideas in
> general?

I've written plenty: I look at what the locally supported distro does, and
teach *that* as a guiding principle, to teach people to avoid setting things
up from scratch that may conflict with local setups.

You get good results from this: by discussing with them why, say, RedHat
puts the actual web pages in /var/www and how /var is set aside for bulky
material that changes rapidly, and why /etc/httpd is a good directory to put
the dozens of config files of a complex setup and avoid mingling them with
other things in /etc., or why if installing from scratch starting out by
putting things in /usr/local instead of /usr can help avoid stomping local
system files, you can milk the lesson for a lot of very useful programming
principles that will save your students pain in future lives.

In comp.os.linux.setup Kronocide <henning@kronocide.com>:
> I'm having a problem. I'm planning for a college course in Apache web
> server, and have opted to teach the standard way of compiling and
> installing the software from source. The problem is to configure the
> machine to start Apache at boot.

It's not always a very clever way to install from source, perhaps
showing how to make a source .rpm or .deb, compile and install it
would be another idea.

> It seems one of the rules of creating your own Linux dist is to make
> sure your init config doesn't look like anyone else's. It's not just a

Iirc lsb compatible distro use 'chkconfig'.

$ man -k runlevel
chkconfig (8) - updates and queries runlevel
information for system services
ntsysv (8) - simple interface for configuring
runlevels
[..]

> So I'm at a loss. If I can't teach how to make Apache start at boot, I
> can't really teach them how to compile and install from source. Since
> the students choose whatever dist they like, I can't really teach
> installing Apache at all. To me, that is an essential part of the
> course.

As last resort you can put "/path/to/apachectl start" into
rc.local/boot.local/etc startup script. Not that clean but should
work anyway.

--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 395: Redundant ACLs.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:57:18 +0100, Enrique Perez-Terron wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:29:25 +0100, Kronocide <henning@kronocide.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It seems one of the rules of creating your own Linux dist is to make
>> sure your init config doesn't look like anyone else's. It's not just a
>> matter of a layer of config tools on top of the standard files, etc. The
>> hierarchy of scripts is really different from Red Hat to Slackware to
>> Ubuntu.
>>
>> So I'm at a loss. If I can't teach how to make Apache start at boot, I
>> can't really teach them how to compile and install from source. Since
>> the students choose whatever dist they like, I can't really teach
>> installing Apache at all. To me, that is an essential part of the
>> course.
>
> I think this is a better approach: Teach them how to start apache using
> means that comes with apache. Teach them to write a script that does
> whatever it takes in a chosen arrangement of yours. Then tell them that
> distributors have made (dis)similar choices, and each student should
> investigate how it is done in their distribution. Make it a homework
> assignment to write a short description of their own environment.
>
> In other words, your mission is not to teach them a recipe of twenty
> keypresses and two mouse gestures that installs apache as a service on a
> computer running no matter what distribution. Your mission is to enable
> them to figure out how it is done on their particular distro, with the
> fallback of writing a script they can stick in /etc/inittab.
>
> As far as I know, all distros start from init and /etc/inittab. Teach
> them to start there if everything else fails.
>
> -Enrique

There is much to recommend this approach, but I would expand it. Make it a
homework assignment to figure out how their distro is unique (file
hierarchy, init and rc.* files, permissions, start/kill/restart scripts,
sw install, distro-specific config issues, etc.), and then present a
written theoretical discussion of what they learned. When all assignents
are all in, grade the work by whatever standard, and hand out copies of
info fore each unique distro tot he entire class, thus equipping them with
a touch more information than they would otherwise have to hand.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.setup, in article
<op.s0uo1si8nxtvbs@apeiron.home.lan>, Enrique Perez-Terron wrote:

>In other words, your mission is not to teach them a recipe of twenty
>keypresses and two mouse gestures that installs apache as a service on
>a computer running no matter what distribution. Your mission is to
>enable them to figure out how it is done on their particular distro,
>with the fallback of writing a script they can stick in /etc/inittab.

[Without inferring disrespect to the O/P]

BRAVO!!! Well stated, sir!!!

>As far as I know, all distros start from init and /etc/inittab. Teach
>them to start there if everything else fails.

Actually (quoting from "From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO"):

Once the kernel is loaded, the first thing it does is look for an init
program to run.

The 'init' used in many modern UNIX or UNIX-like systems influenced by
SystemV (and that includes Linux) looks for a file named /etc/inittab,
and away we go. Yes, /etc/inittab may call a bewildering choice of
files, but it's the common starting point. Even common DOS/windoze users
_used_ to know that there were two files that started things - config.sys
and autoexec.bat. Most never had a clue _what_ those files were doing,
but they were used to having to edit them (with help) to add crap. Then
microsoft lowered the bar...

To the original poster - Reading the "From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO"
really would be a good idea, and it might even be a useful document for
your class to read as a homework assignment.

Old guy

"Moe Trin" <ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld> wrote in message
news:slrndohgst.v45.ibuprofin@compton.phx.az.us...
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.setup, in
> article
> <op.s0uo1si8nxtvbs@apeiron.home.lan>, Enrique Perez-Terron wrote:
>
>>In other words, your mission is not to teach them a recipe of twenty
>>keypresses and two mouse gestures that installs apache as a service on
>>a computer running no matter what distribution. Your mission is to
>>enable them to figure out how it is done on their particular distro,
>>with the fallback of writing a script they can stick in /etc/inittab.
>
> [Without inferring disrespect to the O/P]
>
> BRAVO!!! Well stated, sir!!!
>
>>As far as I know, all distros start from init and /etc/inittab. Teach
>>them to start there if everything else fails.
>
> Actually (quoting from "From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO"):
>
> Once the kernel is loaded, the first thing it does is look for an init
> program to run.
>
> The 'init' used in many modern UNIX or UNIX-like systems influenced by
> SystemV (and that includes Linux) looks for a file named /etc/inittab,
> and away we go. Yes, /etc/inittab may call a bewildering choice of
> files, but it's the common starting point. Even common DOS/windoze users
> _used_ to know that there were two files that started things - config.sys
> and autoexec.bat. Most never had a clue _what_ those files were doing,
> but they were used to having to edit them (with help) to add crap. Then
> microsoft lowered the bar...
>
> To the original poster - Reading the "From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO"
> really would be a good idea, and it might even be a useful document for
> your class to read as a homework assignment.

Umm, guys? There's only so much time available in any course. As wonderful
as it can be to learn the basics, getting deeply into inittab *as well as*
the init scripts may cut into time for more Apache specific material this
person may need to cover.

If you've got the time to cover it, I agree.

As stated above there is of course a time limit, and no limit at all to
the amount of stuff I'd like to teach. I have 15x45 minutes to cover
installation and configuration of Apache, including virtual hosts, SSL
certificates, support for PHP, perl_mod, etc. I wish I could teach them
all about init, but that's just not possible. I also do not want to
make my instructions so abstract they become meaningless. My lesson on
getting Apache to start from boot shouldn't be, "Learn how your distro
works. Configure it correctly." They don't need me to tell them that.

What I'll do is have them go through the motions of compiling and
installing a standard Apache distro, then they can choose if they want
to reinstall using their package manager or figure out their init
config. I will point them to the KSysV handbook, which contains a
short, principal explanation of init, and also to the HOWTO recommended
above (thanks!) for more in-depth information.

Thanks for the great feedback guys.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.setup, in article
<QoCdnYzoTZizMxTeRVn-sQ@comcast.com>, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:

>"Moe Trin" wrote:

>> Enrique Perez-Terron wrote:

>>>In other words, your mission is not to teach them a recipe of twenty
>>>keypresses and two mouse gestures that installs apache as a service on
>>>a computer running no matter what distribution.

which doesn't, in any case. exist. Each has their own way of doing so.

>>>Your mission is to enable them to figure out how it is done on their
>>>particular distro, with the fallback of writing a script they can
>>>stick in /etc/inittab.

>> BRAVO!!! Well stated, sir!!!

>> The 'init' used in many modern UNIX or UNIX-like systems influenced by
>> SystemV (and that includes Linux) looks for a file named /etc/inittab,
>> and away we go. Yes, /etc/inittab may call a bewildering choice of
>> files, but it's the common starting point.

>> To the original poster - Reading the "From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO"
>> really would be a good idea, and it might even be a useful document for
>> your class to read as a homework assignment.

>Umm, guys? There's only so much time available in any course.

I understand that, and really don't expect the O/P to try to teach the
"From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO". There is no need to even teach
shell scripting and how to use a man page, as basic concepts should be a
pre-requisite to the course. The world doesn't need another twenty r00ted
web sites run by people who don't have the basic knowledge to use a push
button telephone but are doing so because they saw someone randomly
pressing keys on a TV ad for Wankers'R'us.

The man pages for 'init', 'inittab' (and maybe even initscript) are not
anywhere near as difficult as trying to read through some of the exotic
"show 'em how great a programmer we are" stuff that is in the specific
scripts. "When the kernel starts, the first thing it runs is 'init'.
Init looks at the file /etc/inittab to find out what runlevel is desired
if it was not passed this parameter by the boot loader, and then runs
these scripts in this order. rc.sysinit does this, that, and the other.
rc runs scripts that do this and that, based on the run level. It runs
the K scripts in the run level directory with the parameter 'stop' and
then the S scripts in the same directory with the parameter 'start'. Those
scripts are normally links to the actual scripts in the init.d directory.
Here is how one script works..." yada, yada, yada. Yes, it would take
longer than that, but you can pack a hell of a lot of information into
an hour.

>As wonderful as it can be to learn the basics, getting deeply into
>inittab *as well as* the init scripts may cut into time for more Apache
>specific material this person may need to cover.

You don't need to get that deeply into /etc/inittab, and anyway, they
wouldn't need to - other than understanding the sequence that the scripts
are run, and why you don't start Apache out of the top of that file (if
at all), and that you need networking before networking daemons. As far
as the init scripts - I don't know whether to blame Miquel van Smoorenburg,
or the herd that followed for the obfuscated material in the average init
scripts, but sometimes I do recommend reading those scripts (along with
the man page for the shell and the server being started/commands being run,
and the abs-guide from The Grendel) to try to learn scripting techniques.

>If you've got the time to cover it, I agree.

Some things need to be pre-requisites. Configuring a server securely is
not a click and move a slider or activate a radio button type of thing.

Congratulations. You've just figured out that they lied to you
when they told you even an untrained monkey on crack can use a
computer. Yes, there's a lot to learn

That's not mine, but it does hit the mark pretty accurately.

Old guy