"Enrique Perez-Terron" <enrio@online.no> wrote in message
newsp.sxzi601onxtvbs@apeiron.home.lan...

>> leverage, medication, or baseball bat to kick him off the pedestal he's
>> put
>> himself on. So do I, but I can warn the newbies before he scares them
>> off.
>
> The latter is needed. Somebody should install an automatic poster
> that triggers when Peter responds to someone new in the ng.

I'm afraid that would be an automatic spam, reaching the classic spam
"Breidbart Index" of more than 15 substantially identical posts in the same
newsgroup within 45 days, and wind up automatically cancelled.

We could post a FAQ, though....

Enrique Perez-Terron <enrio@online.no> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:15:44 +0200, Peter T. Breuer <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

>> J Burford Fields <jbfields3@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just tried to install White Box Linux in a VPC machine on an IBM
>>> Thinkpad. I took the defaults and it came up in X mode and obviously
>>> is not right for the video and screen--unusable.

> Peter, are you aware that your style of response tend to hurt most
> people's feelings? I will try to tell what effect the writings below
> have on me, and what they make me think.

>> Well, change the configuration of the X server then. Problem?

> This question is not helpfull. He most likely writes here because
> he doesn't know how to change the configuration. Your question,
> "Problem?" feels most impertinent, and signals animosity and
> impatience with the OP.

I want HIM to go to the effort of phrasing his problem, not ME go to
the effort of guessing what his problem is. You say "most probably",
and I agree insofar as I guess that he doesn't know WHERE to change
HIS configuration. But HE knows that. HE should say that, not me guess
it. When HE has stated out loud what HIS problem is (to himself
maybe!) then HE can begin to solve it.

That's how progress goes. When HE stops annoyingly not stating HIS
problem, then HE will have the satisfaction of not receiving replies
that make him annoyed because they point to what HE should be doing -
namely stating HIS problem.

Now, where is HIS configuration file for X? I don't know! Indeed,
I can't know, since it could be anywhere. It is usually somewhere like
/etc/X11/XF86Config-foo, but obviusly this varies in all possible
details. So it is HIS job to find out where HIS config file is.

Now, how can HE find out where HIS config file is? Well, HE can read
the output of HIS X startup, or read HIS X log. Or he can run HIS X
X server with some flags (I don't know which - depends on HIS server)
that will tell HIM which config file it is reading.

I hope the number of times I have capitalized HE and HIS should tell
HIM something.

>>> I can re-install,
>>
>> WHY? In heavens name, why?

> You know why. Don't you?

I want HIM to tell me (and thus HIMself) why. He needs to reason.

> Can you describe what effect his words have on you? I mean explicitly
> naming the feelings, not just turning them outward in a reaction.

They don't do anything to me. I fell general annoyance at the lack of
thought processes. In HIS situation I would be busy finding out where
the X configuration file was in order to change it.


> Even if you know that it is not likely to be necessary, or even helpfull
> to reinstall, for him it appears as a possible, albeit unattractive
> solution. Here I mean by possible, not just available, but possible
> in the sense that it is possible, but not guarateed, that it works.

It is entirely guaranteed that it does not work, since it did not work
before. Repeating an action in a computer produces the same result.

> It does appear as a solution even if it likely is not, because from
> his perspective, not knowing what went wrong, if it was something he
> did, it is possible that a second attempt works differently.

Not if HE does not do something different. Besides, nothing has gone
wrong.

> It does not even have to be anything he did wrong. Just a few weeks
> ago I installed Fedora Core 4 on a friend's computer, and the installation
> program said "unable to update the kernel's version of the partition table",
> or something similar, I don't remember the exact words. When I just
> repeated the exact same operations, at far as I can tell, this message
> did not appear and the install ran to completion.

That's because the second time you had dismounted the drive involved
(running from a live CD, eh?). Sounds like a race condition. Tell
those RH messup-experts.

> Yet he is not that stupid. His phrase clearly indicate a reluctance
> to reinstall that is not only caused by the long time it took,
> but also by a suspiction that it won't help or it is not necessary.

To me I read an eagerness to reinstall, because it does not require
him to think about what he is doing. His hope is that brainlessly
doing the same thing again will save him effort. Since it does not
save physical effort, obviusly it is mental effort thathe is looking
to avoid.

I call that laziness.

> By pretending that you don't understand his motives you take the
> position towards him that was the hallmark of unfriendlyness since long
> before our forefathers climbed down from the trees.

I want him to explain his motives to me, and thus to himself. Whan he
expounds them, he can see that they are an unsound basis on which to
work.

> By showing such animosity in an open forum you are triggering the
> ingrained fear we all have deep in our psychological cellar, that we
> could become the target of a rally in the group where an individual

!! Really! I have no such fear, I assure you.

> seeks to increase his influence and mark himself as a leader of the
> gang by pointing out a common enemy. In our civilized world such

Bizarre. I have never heard of such a thing. I assure you I don't take
any such thing into account, one way or the other.

> threats are somewhat less real, but we still have all the instincts
> that make the experience very unpleasant.

I don't. When somebody asks me to explain myself, I explain myself.
Seems simple enough to me!

>>> but it took a LONG time to install.
>>
>> I would hope so! Teach you not to do THAT again!

> Why do you hope so? Are you angered and embittered, seeking some form
> of revenge? For what?

I hope that he has learned from his experience. Being hurt by doing
something wrong and getting success from doing something right is
the way we learn. Right now a nasty Rodney is hurting me on the water
astral plane on nethack. It hurts! I will have to learn to kill him
quick (repeatedly) next time. Can one eat him?


>>> Isn't there a way to switch to text-only mode at startup?
>>
>> Of course. Umpteen. What's the problem?

> If there are umpteen, why don't you offer him some advice?

I want him to phrase an articulate question, and thus permit an
answer, and maybe even answer it. He knows perfectly well that putting
into google "linux text mode startup" will produce a result!

So my advice is "state your question, then answer it".

> Yes we all
> know that we can google and read the internet for 36 hours and possibly

Why would he need a "clue"? I can perfectly well google for something
and receive an answer in 10s!


> have more clues. Getting some help is both faster and comforting,
> making us feel in a friendlier world, less abandoned.

No - I will only do what you say would take me 36 hourss - go to
google. I have no problem using it. But I woul prefer to grep for text
mode in the RH manual!


>>> Next question: Although I use to be a UNIX admin (circa 1985), it's
>>> been years, and I just barely got Red Hat to find the wireless access
>>> to Internet on another machine,
>>
>> Eh? One doesn't get other things to do ones work for one.

> But indeed! What are programs for?

They do THEIR work. The implication is that the administration is done
by HIM.


>> If one wants to "find" a wireless access (whatever you mean),

> You know what he means, if you want to.

I don't, actually. The words make no sense to me.

> Computer configuration may be
> your home arena, it's not everyone's. But everyone know the difference
> between when the computer has an established connection with the local
> network or with the internet, and when this is not the case.

That is different. He means "connect to a wireless hub" (at the low level)
and "configure the routing" (atthe higher IP level). Any computer
person would know that. I know they would - when I was given my first
sun3 getting on for 20 years ago now, I knew nothing about computers,
and I had no problem finding the man pages for ifconfig and route and
USING them. Nowadays he can read the Wireless HOWTO.

> You know perfectly well that there are programs that let the users
> establish such communications for the first time without the users

I do not. I have never seen such a thing! How would it work? It would
need his essid and such like! It can't possibly work "just like that".
There can be no such thing. It woul have to read minds. How would it
know which card to use for the gateway, etc?

> having to know much about how it works. This naturally leads to vague
> formulations like "find the wireless access", but it is absolutely
> adequate for the context.

>> one does it, then one tells the machine what one has decided itwould be best for it to do.

> And when one wants to be helpfull, one tell *how* one does it.

No one doesn't - one tells the person involved to phrase coherent
precise questions that he can answer himself. That is HIM being
helpful.

> You do so in the next paragraph, but only after that unnecessary
> and alienating sentence!

It is quite necesary and I hope it is deeplly alienating! There is
nothing wrong with "alienation"! I have no desire to be friendly with
him, and I hope he has no desire to be friendly with me. What I want
is to raise his intelligence, and thus the intelligence of "the
universe", so that it can do better.

> You know that your statement "when one wants to, one does it" is not
> true.

It is true.

> When one wants to, but does not know how, one first seeks advice,

One work out what ones first problem is, and solves it.

> considers if it still is what one wants in light of the information one
> has got, and if so, then finally one does it.

No, that is not how one works. One work by figuring out what is ones
personal first problem, and solving it.

> Denying his experience the way you do, is a recurring method of
> intimidation.

No it is not - it is a method of focusing his attention on what HE
needs to do.

>> I suspect that you mean
>>
>> a) load a driver for your card
>> b) run iwconfig on the device to give it the appropriate essid
>> c) run ifconfig n the device to give it an IP address
>> d) set the default static route to go via a gateway on the wirelss net
>> e) set the default name servers to be on the net.

> Suspecting he means something is way more unfriendly than suggesting

I suspect it is what he meant, nonethelss, althouh I have no idea.,
since I do not know what he means by "find".

> he could do something. The word "suspect" has very negative conotations.

Good.

> Atributing such meanings to him denies his reality of not knowing what
> to do

He knows perfectly well what to do. He just won't be bothered to
analyze his mind suficiently to express it. Why should I bother on his
behalf? I shouldn't - I shuld encourage him to sort out the mess in
his head until he is suficiently coherent to make sense.

> and feeling unsure even if he probably has the capability to come
> up with at least some of the items you suggest if he found he were

You attempt to suggest that basic level zero intelligence is smething
that needs a "capability"!

> alone and left to his own devices. Flatly denying other's reality
> is a method of intimidation.

It isn't denying it - it's focusssing on it, so he can say "I don't
know where th s configuration file is". he won't say it. I don't know
why! When he says it, he can be helped, hpefully by himself.

>>> I'm at a loss for what video settings
>>
>> Then become less at a loss!

> He *is* becoming less at loss! By seeking advice!

No - one bcome less at a loss by doing research ..

> Why are you giving orders? Don't you have any respect for him?

I have none. Why should I? What has he done that implies I should
respect him? Nothing.

>> Look them up!

> He *is* looking them up - in this newsgroup!

Why? He has a computer and google, no? Is he so lazy that he will not
work on his own?

>> Doesn't linux-laptops.net list your machine?

> Finally a usefull hint! Thanks, man!

He can put into google the obvious thing, just as well as I can. Linux
plus his make and model, plus "install".

>> Virtually anything at all works for a laptop - the settings are
>> ignored. There is no cathode ray to tell how long to take in each
>> sweep, or how much to wait in the sync.

> More good advice. This is perhaps a usefull hint.

And I would hope he takes it, and does his own further RESEARCH!

>> Just use any old Modline aimed at about 60Hz. As low as you like!

> Fortunately, no-one sees the modelines anymore. In the bad, bad old

They work fine.

> days when we did, it was a nightmare. My head just was not bright enough

What "nightmare"? One could set them all any way one likes. One can
still.

> to make sense of the descriptions, and I ended up just trying a bunch

What's to make sense of? It's perfectly evident! It requires no
intelligence. Thanks, but I read the encyclopedia of machines when I
was eight years old, and I KNOW hw a TV works.

> of numbers. It was not even possible to do the math from the data offered

Of course it is! If you have a 1024x768 screen, then that is 3/4 of a
million pixels. If you feel like guessing that a 100MHz pixel clock
will keep your monitor steady (any higher might introduce high
frequency instabilities), then obviously you can do 133 complete
frames per second, max. Suppose you allow an extra 25% of pixels equivalent in
time for the flyback at side and top, then you are back "down" to a
100Hz vert refresh, which should be enough for anyone.

If you really want 778 lines (say 800, counting flyback time), then
obviously you will do 77.80KHz lines per second, and that is your
horizontal rate. That seems a bit high to me, since many cathode rays
dn't have magnets big enough to get the ray across a big wide screen
that quickly, so he might want to drop the vert refresh rate by 10%,
to say 90Hz.

Etc. How can anyone not understand such kindergarten-level
obviousnesses? They have harder tests of mental arithmetic in the
eleven-plus exams for entry to secondary school.

> in the manpages and howtos, because there were essential missing links
> everywhere.

> Even armed with a modline, where do you stick it in?

In HIS configuration file. Yu want me to say which stanza? That would
require me to look in up in HIS man page. Oh - perhaps he culd send me
HIS page.

>>> would work on this machine, and how to change them once install has
>>> been completed.

>> You use an editor. ("Problem?")

> When you ask that way you imply there is no problem, and that
> the OP is stupid believing there is one.

There is no problem - except HIS problem of not being able to
enunciate his problem.

> But you know that
> the OP's behavior is a perfectly normal one. Given something

No, it is an abnormal one. Intelligent people BEGIN by stating their
problem in order that they may solve it, not by asking other people to
make them feel better.

> that does not work, a thousand vage ideas racing through his head

Then let them be not vague, but precise. That requires eloquence.

> about what the causes could be, and all help seeming quite remote,
> humans, as a matter of natural law, do feel uncertain, fearfull,

Then let him feel not so.

> and confused, and in need of advice. So why are you pretending
> otherwise? Such pretending was always a method of intimidation.
> Why do you do that?

So that he may learn to think.


> No doubt you know that the advice he needs is not "editor" but
> /etc/X11/xorg.conf, or something like that.

I don't know. Yes - "something like that". HE has to tell us what HIS
config file is, so that HE may then edit it.

> And yes, I see a problem, and perhaps you do have an answer: What is
> VPC? Could, by any chance, "V" in VPC stand for "virtual"? Could there
> then be any possibility that the normal way of configuring X does not
> quite apply?

I don't know what VPC is.


> Could I suggest that you try to describe your feelings? What are

I don't have any! I simply want him to fix his head, and start
behaving like an ordinary intelligent human being with whom it would
be a pleasure to have a conversation with.

> the feelings you have that make you write this way? You could do
> this for each of the statements. If you can, find out how come you
> have just those feelings. If you cannot, try to guess or hypothese

I don't have feelings!

> about it. Investigate it. There is a serous danger that you are
> in a vicious circle of bad experiences with other people treating
> you poorly, and you doing the same to everybody else.

Good :-).

Peter

Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>
> I hope the number of times I have capitalized HE and HIS should tell
> HIM something.

So, if I understand your diatribe, you're saying that you cannot
give helpful advice on anyone's problems, because you are not
knowledgeable regarding the details of their particular machine.

In that case, why in heaven's name do you hang around this newsgroup
pretending to offer assistance, if all you're capable of doing (by
the previous paragraph's reasoning) is to say "I can't help you,
you must help yourself"? Given that, all you are accomplishing is
the belittling of those who are seeking assistance here.

> I don't have feelings!

Obviously. Thank you for clearing that up.

Steve Martin <smartinwate@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>>
>> I hope the number of times I have capitalized HE and HIS should tell
>> HIM something.

> So, if I understand your diatribe, you're saying that you cannot
> give helpful advice on anyone's problems, because you are not
> knowledgeable regarding the details of their particular machine.

No - you read wrong. The helpful advice is for HIM to find out the
details of HIS particular machine, tell me what they are, then I will
tell him what they are (and he will feel happy?). The idea is that he
learns to phrase problems that he can solve, solve them and then move
on to the next step. Repeat.

> In that case, why in heaven's name do you hang around this newsgroup
> pretending to offer assistance, if all you're capable of doing (by
> the previous paragraph's reasoning) is to say "I can't help you,
> you must help yourself"?

Because that is what is the idea of living - helping yourself.
Teaching other people to do that is being generous!

> Given that, all you are accomplishing is
> the belittling of those who are seeking assistance here.

Why do you think that teaching other people to help themselves is
belittling them? I would call it "enabling them", "empowering them",
or some such.

Yu seem to have a curiously distorted view of life. Well, I don't like
it! I am not your help-slave! I am willing to help you to help
yourself, but I won't do the self-helping FOR you, that is, INSTEAD OF
you.

>> I don't have feelings!

> Obviously. Thank you for clearing that up.

Happy to be of assistance. Would you mind joining the gene pool on
Beta Cantauri? It's thattaway -> ...

Peter

"Steve Martin" <smartinwate@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:7sudnVZ0OofYjdzeRVn-hQ@adelphia.com...
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>>
>> I hope the number of times I have capitalized HE and HIS should tell
>> HIM something.
>
> So, if I understand your diatribe, you're saying that you cannot
> give helpful advice on anyone's problems, because you are not
> knowledgeable regarding the details of their particular machine.

No, he gets on his self-erected pedestal and snarks at them to feel
superior. It's vastly easier to tell someone else they're wrong and stupid
than to actually draw them out and figure out what the problem really is: if
you did, you'd run the risk of actually being proven wrong or showing the
limits of your knowledge.

It's much snafer to just snark at them and pretend you have an answer,
they're just unworthy of it.

I've been teaching electronics, communications, and computers since
1979 and hold credentials for the profession. I know teachers and
teaching. No one hired you or invited you to that role. Moreover your
approach to the task bore only little resemblance to anything useful in
that regard, instead mostly displaying your huge need to assume such a
role, invited or not.

A good first rule for teaching might be to avoid annoying your
audience. Good manners might benefit you in other ways as well.

J B. Fields writes:
> No one hired you or invited you to that role. Moreover your approach to
> the task bore only little resemblance to anything useful in that regard,
> instead mostly displaying your huge need to assume such a role, invited
> or not.

As you have not included any context in your message nor identified its
target, I must assume that you intend to insult and antagonize us all.
--
John Hasler
john@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

Such assumptions and compulsions are your problem, not mine.

J B. Fields <jbfields3@gmail.com> wrote:
> Such assumptions and compulsions are your problem, not mine.

:-). I can honestly say that I do not recall ever contributing to this
thread. Not that I know anything about VPC either!

But I must add that anyone who advertises teaching "qualifications" as
a plus is a bit on the weird side - in my experience that merely
indicates low horizons plus great ability to put up with horrible
administrative hurdling sports and general mistreatment all round by
all and sundry and their kid schwester. I have great respect for
teachers patience and forbearance, but not for any technical skills.

Peter

You might need treatment for depression if you find yourself always
presuming the worst. There are a number of technical certifications
for technical trainers who work mostly with adults. There are also a
number of venues where one may teach children, if that is ones
preference, where I suspect your own horizons could be greatly widened.
Take, for example, a place like Martha's Table, in Washington, DC,
where Bill Gates donated all that money for computers.

If this original message had been posted by one of their sharp young
minds, your response would not have encouraged them in the pursuit of
Linux. Trying to pass off bad manners as some kind of tutorial style
insults a good profession.