guest wrote:
>
> On 2003-09-13, Dr. David Kirkby <drkirkby@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > guest wrote:
> >>
> > I hate to say it, but why bother porting the OS to a machine that is
> > well passed its sell-by-date?
> >
> > Why not port it to an UltraSPARC based machine, where at least someone
> > might be inclined to use it - assuming you don't intend keeping this
> > just for yourself. I don't think OpenBSD bothers supporting Sun 4m,
> > probably realising it is wasted effort.
>
> Some of the older machines were the best designed ones.

True the SS20 is very well put together. It's biggest fault is the lack
of cooling.

> Basically I like the design of the SS20, I get my thrill from interacting
> with the hardware at the low-level that kernel code runs on. Its a passion
> and a hobby.

Yes it's a nice machine. I have 5 of the things here. But you can do low
level things on an UltraSPARC machine as well.

> > admit the SS20 was more revolutionary than the U80. But I still think
> > it's a bit of a waste of time porting a new OS to sun4m.
>
> But what I will gain (in knowlegde and experience) is immeasurable and worth
> any time I devote to that endeavor.

May be it is. But if I were an IT professional (which I'm not) I'd
rather put on my CV I ported an OS on a modern 64-bit machine though. I
can't see what less knowledge and experience you would gain by porting
your OS to a modern machine. You will just learn more about modern
systems and less about older ones.

That said I was reading a 25 year old paper on the Cray-1 the other day,
so I guess I'm just as mad.

> If only I could get the specs manuals I need.

Well good luck, but I'd seriously think about whether porting to the
SS20 is the best choice of machine.

If you do find any docs in electronic format on the SS20, perhaps you
can make them available on a web site or post the URLs. I don't suppose
I will ever need them, but given I have several of the beasts here, I
might do.

--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably
the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge.

Dr. David Kirkby,
Senior Research Fellow,
Department of Medical Physics,
University College London,
11-20 Capper St, London, WC1E 6JA.
Website: http://www.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/~davek
Author of 'atlc' http://atlc.sourceforge.net/

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

> That said I was reading a 25 year old paper on the Cray-1 the other day,
> so I guess I'm just as mad.

Cray 1s are cool. There's gotta be something good about
a machine that makes chairs out of its PSUs!

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Rich Teer wrote:
>
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
>
> > That said I was reading a 25 year old paper on the Cray-1 the other day,
> > so I guess I'm just as mad.
>
> Cray 1s are cool.

I guess they should be, with all that Freon cooling!!

> There's gotta be something good about
> a machine that makes chairs out of its PSUs!

I've never seen one, but there is one bit I like in the paper "Other
features enhancing the CRAY-1's computational cababilites are; its small
size ..."

Then you look at the dimensions of the thing and realises that overall
the base is 103" diameter and the 19" high and the whole thing stands
77" tall.

I would not mind looking at one for the hell of it. I guess there is
probably a few in museums somewhere.
--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably
the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge.

Dr. David Kirkby,
Senior Research Fellow,
Department of Medical Physics,
University College London,
11-20 Capper St, London, WC1E 6JA.
Website: http://www.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/~davek
Author of 'atlc' http://atlc.sourceforge.net/

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:

> I've never seen one, but there is one bit I like in the paper "Other
> features enhancing the CRAY-1's computational cababilites are; its small
> size ..."

The 4th and 5th pictures (black and white, alas) on this page
illustrate the cray 1:

http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Shust...ekTour-03.html

--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-online.net

Rich Teer wrote:
>
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
>
> > I've never seen one, but there is one bit I like in the paper "Other
> > features enhancing the CRAY-1's computational cababilites are; its small
> > size ..."
>
> The 4th and 5th pictures (black and white, alas) on this page
> illustrate the cray 1:
>
> http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Shust...ekTour-03.html
>

Cheers. The picture is a lot clearer than the paper on the Cray-1 which
I found somewere

http://www.cray-cyber.org/general/start.php

(Where incenelty, anyone can log in an use a Cray Y-MP for no charge -
username guest, password guest, or request an account).

Rather interesting reading that page you sent, it mentions the coolant
used on the Cray-2:

"Cray's next machine, uncreatively called the "Cray-2," solved the
cooling/plumbing problem another way: the boards themselves were
swimming in a non-conducting liquid called "Fluorinert," a blood plasma
substitute used in surgery that happens to have the right thermal,
mechanical, and electrical properties."

I've never seen an over-clocker use that on his PC. Despite the fact I
never hardly use a PC, I've often contemplated making an almost silent
liquid cooled machine. I suspect is is quite feasable, although at
considerable cost and weight.

--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably
the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge.

Dr. David Kirkby,
Senior Research Fellow,
Department of Medical Physics,
University College London,
11-20 Capper St, London, WC1E 6JA.
Website: http://www.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/~davek
Author of 'atlc' http://atlc.sourceforge.net/

> I've never seen an over-clocker use that on his PC. Despite the fact I
> never hardly use a PC, I've often contemplated making an almost silent
> liquid cooled machine. I suspect is is quite feasable, although at
> considerable cost and weight.

That is because Fluoroinert is _really_ expensive, and not too easy to get
a hold of. All the Fluoroinert from old installations gets recovered and
reused, apparently...

--
Steven Hill

A lot can be achieved with a smile.
Granted, a lot more can be achieved with a smile and a gun.

Dr. David Kirkby <drkirkby@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
> just for yourself. I don't think OpenBSD bothers supporting Sun 4m,
> probably realising it is wasted effort.

Errr... sun4m is definitely on their "supported hardware" list, and so is
sun4c. Or are you talking about SMP on sun4m?

Cheerio,

Thomas

Thomas wrote:
>
> Dr. David Kirkby <drkirkby@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> [...]
> > just for yourself. I don't think OpenBSD bothers supporting Sun 4m,
> > probably realising it is wasted effort.
>
> Errr... sun4m is definitely on their "supported hardware" list, and so is
> sun4c. Or are you talking about SMP on sun4m?
>
> Cheerio,
>
> Thomas

Sorry, it was FreeBSD I meant, not OpenBSD. I have an SS20 here running
OpenBSD 3.2.

--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably
the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge.

Dr. David Kirkby,
Senior Research Fellow,
Department of Medical Physics,
University College London,
11-20 Capper St, London, WC1E 6JA.
Website: http://www.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/~davek
Author of 'atlc' http://atlc.sourceforge.net/

Steven Hill wrote:
>
> > I've never seen an over-clocker use that on his PC. Despite the fact I
> > never hardly use a PC, I've often contemplated making an almost silent
> > liquid cooled machine. I suspect is is quite feasable, although at
> > considerable cost and weight.
>
> That is because Fluoroinert is _really_ expensive, and not too easy to get
> a hold of. All the Fluoroinert from old installations gets recovered and
> reused, apparently...

Well, I did say at "at considerable cost and weight". I found it would
be quite easy to obtain Fluorinert - there are different types. I've not
checked the prices, but I would strongly suspect that for under $15,000
I could assemble an almost silent PC.

There are other liquids that are used as coolants - silicon oils are
one. Despite being quite expensive, it is not prohibitively so. I have a
3 kW 50 Ohm 'dummy load' which has silicon oil to cool it. Just a big 50
Ohm resistor, silicon oil conducting heat to a metal heatsink. No fan is
needed.

The problem with many attempts at making PCs quite is that they are
based on pseudo-science. The same happens with most things in the PC
market - there is no scientific basis for much of what gets advertised,
but the science education of the general public is so low, and their
stupidity so high, that they get convinced into buying some junk.


--
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably
the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge.

Dr. David Kirkby,
Senior Research Fellow,
Department of Medical Physics,
University College London,
11-20 Capper St, London, WC1E 6JA.
Website: http://www.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/~davek
Author of 'atlc' http://atlc.sourceforge.net/

> Well, I did say at "at considerable cost and weight". I found it would
> be quite easy to obtain Fluorinert - there are different types. I've not
> checked the prices, but I would strongly suspect that for under $15,000
> I could assemble an almost silent PC.

You should be able to boost some LN to cool a machine with, not exactly
home use, but you do work in UCL... I don't know if medical physics could
come up with an excuse to procure Fluoroinert though...

--
Steven Hill

``Libenter homines id quod volunt credunt''